CNLP 247: Clay Scroggins and Brad Lomenick Roundtable On Future Trends, The Attractional Church, The Rise of Charismatic Churches, And The Most Difficult Parts of Leadership

Everything’s changing in the church and culture so fast, how do you respond? In this year’s Rethink Leadership Roundtable, Clay Scroggins and Brad Lomenick join Carey to talk about future trends in culture and the church, whether attractional church has peaked, the rise of charismatic churches and more.

Welcome to Episode 247 of the podcastListen and access the show notes below or search for the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and listen for free.

Guest Links | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

CNLP 181: Brad Lomenick on Trends in Church Attendance, Online Engagement, Cool Churches and Isolation in Leadership

CNLP 127: Jud Wilhite and Brad Lomenick Roundtable on Their Worst Mistakes and Best Decisions in Leadership

CNLP 074: The Future Church, Reaching Millennials and Our Biggest Mistakes in Leadership – A Candid Conversation with Geoff Surratt, Brad Lomenick and Carey Nieuwhof

CNLP 055: Brad Lomenick on the 3 Essential Components It Takes to Lead in Today’s Culture

CNLP 027: How to Know When It’s Time to Move on – An Honest Interview about Leadership, Personal Growth and Leaving before It’s Too Late with Brad Lomenick | FacebookInstagram | Twitter

CNLP 193: Clay Scroggins on How the Digital Disruption is Changing Everything for Churches and Businesses

CNLP 153: Clay Scroggins on How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge

CNLP 035: Leading Young at North Point – An Interview with Clay Scroggins

How to Lead in a World of Distraction: Maximizing Your Influence by Turning Down the Noise

Episode Links And Free Downloads

Rethink Leadership is a premier leadership event designed by senior leaders exclusively for lead, executive and campus pastors. Join me in Atlanta on May 1-3 for content, conversations and community unlike any other leadership event in the country. You’ll go home with more than ideas. You’ll go home with a fresh network working together to solve the biggest challenges facing your church and the Church. Register by March 31st to receive $20 off regular pricing.

Brad Lomenick’s Curated Content Email—New Things To Check Out

“5-Bullet Friday” — 5 Things I’ve Been Loving, Using, and Reading by Tim Ferriss

Excellence Wins: A No-Nonsense Guide to Becoming the Best in a World of Compromise by Horst Schulze

The Inevitable: Understanding the 12 Technological Forces That Will Shape Our Future by Kevin Kelly

AR Will Spark the Next Big Tech Platform – Call It Mirrorworld by Kevin Kelly

CNLP 245: Jud Wilhite on Developing New Strategies to Reach Unchurched People, What’s Working and What’s Not, And How to Lead Out of Your Vulnerabilities and Insecurities

Take A Look Inside One Pastor’s Virtual Reality Church –

Starbucks Is Expanding Delivery To Even More Cities Next Month by Madison Flager

7 Disruptive Church Trends That Will Rule 2018 by Carey Nieuwhof

5 Disruptive Church Trends That Will Rule 2019 by Carey Nieuwhof

5 Reasons Charismatic Churches Are Growing (And Attractional Churches Are Past Peak) by Carey Nieuwhof

CNLP 052: How Carig Groeschel Stays Healthy, Relevant and Passionate in Ministry

CNLP 173: Craig Groeschel Deconstructs His Approach to Preaching, Leadership, Success, the Future and More

CNLP 228: Craig Groeschel on Handling the Pain that Comes with Life and Leadership, How God Can Redeem Self-Inflicted Pain and Bring Hope in the Dark of Personal Suffering

The 5 Levels of Leadership: Proven Steps to Maximize Your Potential by John Maxwell

3 Insights from this Episode

1.  The leaders of today and the future will be the curators

There is no shortage of information available to us in our modern world. You can become an expert on anything after a quick google. The leaders of the future will not necessarily be the leaders that create the newest and best content, but the leaders who can filter through all of the noise in our modern world and pull out the few helpful, practical bits of information.

You don’t have to be the one to write ten articles. You can write one and then link to 9 other articles and be just as helpful. People are looking for a helpful filter to view the world through. People need more content than one person can produce.

Check out Brad Lomenick’s curated list of trends: New Things To Check Out

2. The church has to shift from downloadable to transcendent experiences

If our services continue to be something that can be downloaded, they will. And people will continue to stop showing up on Sundays. How do we change this? If we can create an experience that transcends this world, that connects people to Jesus in ways that can not be repeated on a screen, then we will begin to keep people together.

The reason to gather “because it’s biblical” just isn’t working anymore. We have to find more and better reasons for people to prioritize physically gathering in community. We need to offer a better “why” as the Church. Carey’s church has begun connecting people into relationship much sooner to help people see what the church is truly about.

Another key shift with this change is a shift where churches are both attractive and experiencial. We have a lot of churches that can reach people through their heart, and we have a lot of churches that can reach people through their heads. We need churches that can do both. Life.Church is a great example of this right now.

3. The local church is replacing institutions as influencers.

You use to have to go to a record label to make a world-famous album. Now if you look at the iTunes top 100 Christian artist list you see just as many local church bands being featured as you are seeing major recording artists. You see the same trend in colleges. You are seeing more and more leadership training colleges within the local church and less and less major institutions.

You no longer need a million dollars to launch a viral program. Local churches like Elevation Worship, Bethel Music, and churches that have partnered with Southeastern University are putting these programs that were previously unavailable to the local church inside of local churches all over the world. This is a shift that will continue to evolve in the coming years.

Quotes from Episode 247

We are drowning in a sea of information. The crisis today is not a shortage of information, it's a shortage of meaning. @cnieuwhof Click To Tweet It’s easier to be an expert on something now, you can read a couple articles on something and sound like an expert. @clayscroggins Click To Tweet If your church experiences can be downloaded, they will. @clayscroggins Click To Tweet “The reason to gather “because it’s biblical” just isn’t working anymore. We have to find more and better reasons for people to prioritize physically gathering in community.” @clayscroggins Click To Tweet We don’t follow Jesus because we have to, we follow Jesus because we realize it’s better. @clayscroggins Click To Tweet When planning a service, you can manipulate or you can evoke. Never cross the line from evoking to manipulation. @cnieuwhof Click To Tweet The leader of the future and the leader of now is really going to be the curator much more than the aggregator of content. @bradlomenick Click To Tweet Smart leaders are always asking the question behind the question. @bradlomenick Click To Tweet You don’t have to be the one to write ten articles. You can write one and then link to 9 other articles and be just as helpful. @bradlomenick Click To Tweet The best leaders are the most emotionally healthy leaders, but you have to shut down the noise to get there. @clayscroggins Click To Tweet I want all of God. @bradlomenick Click To Tweet Leadership is hard. If you are in the game, it is going to be tough. @clayscroggins Click To Tweet

Read or Download the Transcript for Episode 247

Looking for a key quote? More of a reader?

Read or download a free PDF transcript of this episode here.

Didn’t See It Coming Will Help You Solve the Problems Most Leaders Miss

If you want practical help overcoming some of the biggest challenges leaders face, my new book Didn’t See It Coming: Overcoming the 7 Greatest Challenges That Nobody Expects and Everyone Experiences tackles the seven core issues that take people out: cynicism, compromise, disconnectedness, irrelevance, pride, burnout, and the emptiness of success and provides strategies on how to combat each.

I wrote the book because no 18 year old sets out to be cynical, jaded and disconnected by age 35. Yet it happens all the time.

The good news is, it doesn’t have to be that way.

Here’s what top leaders are saying about Didn’t See It Coming:

“Seriously, this may be the most important book you read this year.” Jud Wilhite, Lead Pastor, Central Church

“Powerful, personal, and highly readable. ” Brian Houston, Global Senior Pastor, Hillsong

“Whatever challenge you’re facing, whatever obstacle you’re hoping to overcome, whatever future you dream or imagine, there is something powerful for you here.” Andy Stanley, Founder, North Point Ministries

“Uncommonly perceptive and generous…You have to read this book.” Ann Voskamp, NYT bestselling author

“Masterful.” Reggie Joiner, CEO Orange

“Deep biblical insight, straightforward truth, and practical wisdom to help you grow.” Craig Groeschel, Pastor and NYT bestselling author

“This book is sure to help you.” Daniel H. Pink, NYT bestselling author

Over the years, one of the things I’ve enjoyed most about being a public speaker is having opportunities to hang out with Carey…It’s not a matter of if you’ll run into these challenges; it’s a matter of when. Be prepared by spending a little time with a leader who has already been there.” Jon Acuff, NYT best-selling author

“Nieuwhof’s book provides expert guidance…with an accuracy that pierces the heart.” Nancy Duarte, CEO Duarte Inc.

“A refreshingly transparent guide for all leaders in a wide variety of industries.” Bryan Miles, Co-Founder and CEO, BELAY

You can learn more and get your copy of Didn’t See It Coming here.

Subscribed Yet? 

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Spread the Word. Leave a Rating and Review

Hopefully, this episode has helped you lead like never before. That’s my goal. If you appreciated it, could you share the love?

The best way to do that is to rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts and leave us a brief review! You can do the same on Stitcher and on TuneIn as well.

Your ratings and reviews help us place the podcast in front of new leaders and listeners. Your feedback also lets me know how I can better serve you.

Thank you for being so awesome.

Next Episode: Joel & Nina Schmidgall

Anyone who has been married for a while knows it can be difficult, but marriage is often harder than most couples signed up for. Joel and Nina Schmidgall talk about the struggles they themselves and the couples they work with face, and how prayer can help more than you think. Adapting the framework of Mark Batterson’s New York Time’s Best-selling book, The Circle Maker, Joel and Nina talk about how praying circles around your marriage can change your marriage for the better.

Subscribe for free now and you won’t miss Episode 248.

CNLP 247: Clay Scroggins and Brad Lomenick Roundtable On Future Trends, The Attractional Church, The Rise of Charismatic Churches, And The Most Difficult Parts of Leadership


  1. Barry Drinkel on February 28, 2019 at 3:10 pm

    Hi Carey, I tried to get the PDF transcript but it opens a page with a 404 error. Any chance of still getting access to it?

    Thanks, Barry

  2. Dale Simmons on February 28, 2019 at 1:14 pm

    I could listen to Brad and Clay all day. I am a pastor of a small, older congregation which is dying. I am so grateful for all of the input I can get to reach out to our community. Thanks again Carey.

  3. Les Woolsey on February 28, 2019 at 7:37 am

    Good episode but I wanted to go back and find a reference in it but the transcript is not there. It gives me a 404 error.

  4. Edward on February 28, 2019 at 6:25 am

    Love your podcasts
    Tried to download the script to podcast 247 but a error 404 cones up

  5. Jacob Pannell on February 26, 2019 at 2:33 pm

    Yay first comment! That link email list is next level! Great conversation Carey, Clay, and Brad. Loved that ya’ll disagreed live and were able to work through it. Great conflict conversation modeling and ya’ll probably didn’t even notice. I appreciated the humility everyone had.

    Shoutout to Clay’s wife as a fellow stay at home parent. Podcasts are the best! Would love to connect somehow on what you’re listening. I can always use some good voices in my head. My two year old loves listening to any female hosted podcasts. He’s a wonderful weirdo.

  6. R J Gore on February 26, 2019 at 8:21 am

    transcript link for 247 doesn’t work

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