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A Response To Christians Who Are Done With Church

You hear it all the time.

I’m done with church.

I don’t really need to go to church…my relationship with God is personal.

I’ve had it with organized religion.

The church is a man-made invention, not God’s idea.

I completely understand why a growing number of people are bailing on church. Even people who used to lead in the church often stop attending (here are 9 reasons why church leaders do that).

We’ve spent a lot of time working through the issue of declining church attendance (and growing disillusionment with the church) on this blog and in my leadership podcast. (For a summary of the issues, here’s a piece on the 10 reasons even committed church attenders are attending church less often).

I get it.

The church is far from perfect. Life is complex. There are growing options. And the post-modern mind distrusts most things organized or institutional.

But as trendy as the idea of writing off the church may be, it’s a mistake.

While writing off the church passes as sophisticated thinking, it’s actually the opposite; what if it’s a simplistic and even reductionistic line of thinking that leads nowhere constructive?

The church isn’t even biblical, is it?

People argue the idea of church isn’t even biblical.

So let’s start with the basics.

First if you’re a Christian, church is not something you go to. It’s something you are.

You can’t disassociate from church as a Christian anymore than you can disassociate from humanity as a person.

You don’t go to church. You are the church.

Second, the church was not a human invention. Half-reading the New Testament with one eye closed will still lead you to the inescapable conclusion that the church was God’s idea.

In fact, most of the New Testament is not about the teachings of Jesus. It’s about the work of the church that Jesus initiated and ordained. I won’t fill this post with scripture verses that prove my point, because, quite frankly, you’d have to get rid of the majority of the New Testament to argue that the church was a parenthetical, made-up organization.

If you want to get rid of the church, you also need to get rid of Jesus.

You can’t have one without the other.

Maybe what bothers you should actually amaze you

I understand that the idea of the church being imperfect makes some people despair.

But rather than making us despair, the fact that Jesus started the church with imperfect people should make us marvel at God’s incredible grace.

That God would use ordinary, broken human beings as vessels of his grace, and delight in it is awe-inspiring. He’s proud of how his grace is beating through your imperfect-but-redeemed life and through the church (have you ever read Ephesians 3: 10-11?).

The idea that God would use you and me is pretty amazing. He had other options.

He could have spoken to the world directly, but instead chose to use broken people to showcase his grace to a world in need of redemption.

For sure, community is messy.

People sin. Leaders are sinful.

Most of the New Testament is not a story of an idealized church where everything worked perfectly all the time (just read 1 Corinthians any time you’re frustrated with your church).

Most of the New Testament is a story of Jesus using his followers to spread his love in spite of themselves and as they overcome obstacle after obstacle.

The fact that Christ uses flawed people to accomplish his work on earth is actually a sign of his grace, not a sign of his absence.

The church’s story, as twisted as it gets at times, is a beautiful story of God’s grace, God’s power and God’s redemption.

So, by the way, is your life, which reflects the story of the church more than you would want to admit.

The church gives the world a front row seat to the grace of God.

The ultimate consumerism isn’t going to church…it’s walking away from it

People criticize the church today as being consumeristic. And to some extent, churches cater to consumerism—often to our detriment. I agree that consumerism is a problem for Christianity.

But ironically, much of the dialogue about why people are done with church pushes people deeper into Christian consumerism than it pushes them into deeper discipleship: Here I am, all alone, worshipping God on my schedule when it’s convenient for me.

Listening to a podcast of your favourite preacher while you’re at the gym or on the back deck and pushing three of your favourite worship songs through your ear buds does not make you a more passionate Christ follower.

It usually makes you a less effective one.

Disconnecting yourself from community is actually less faithful than connecting yourself to a flawed community.

If you think the church today isn’t enough (and arguably, we need to reform it), then do what the early Christians did.

If you want a more biblical church…don’t gather weekly, gather daily. Before dawn.

Get up before the sun rises to pray together with other Christians before you go to work. Pool your possessions. Don’t claim anything as your own.

Be willing to lose your job, your home, your family and even your life because you follow Jesus.

Then you’ll be more authentic.

And notice that the early church did indeed gather. 

Gathering always leads to some form of organizing.

To pretend the church doesn’t need to be organized is as logical arguing that society doesn’t need to be organized.

Because community is inevitable, organization is inevitable.

Our ability to organize and to accomplish more together than we can alone is one of the crowning achievements of humanity, and our ability to work together makes Christian effort far more effective. 

It’s also part of God’s design for how we should interact while we’re on this planet. Come to think of it, heaven is a community too.

The only one who wants us to believe that we are better off alone is our enemy.

If you really think about it, it’s actually a very clever tactic.

The church has helped even those who resent the church

Finally, if you’re reading this article and you have any modicum of faith in Jesus, may I suggest your faith is actually the result of the mission of the church.

Very few people come to know Jesus because he appears to them supernaturally when they are alone and calls them by name.

Does that ever happen? Sure. But not to 99.9% of us.

Almost all of us who follow Jesus have had our lives changed by a flawed body called the church that Jesus so passionately loves and calls his own.

Think about that.

We need more church

Do we need more churches? Yes.

Do we need more humble churches? We do.

Do you we need authentic, transparent leadership? Absolutely.

Does the church need to change? Without a doubt.

The church needs continual reformation and transformation.

So what will the future look like?

Will we gather in quite the way we do today in the future? In some ways yes; in others, no.

Hopefully we gather more frequently and work through our differences at a deeper level and impact our communities more powerfully.

These two posts offer 10 predictions about future church attendance and 11 traits of churches that will impact the future.

But regardless of how the church gathers in the future, we will gather…we need to gather.

We Christians need each other, probably now more than ever.

And even if you don’t think you need other Christians, I promise you you do, and so does our world.

Now, more than ever, the world needs Christian working together humbly under Christ to lead people into a growing relationship with him, in whatever innovate and fresh forms that takes.

The church is not dead.

Far from it.

Maybe it’s just beginning to take shape for a brand new era that desperately needs it.

A Response To Christians Who Are Done With Church

1,743 Comments

  1. Daniel on June 16, 2020 at 11:29 am

    Perhaps the word ‘church’ should be removed from English translations and your own mind because it is actually an incorrect translation for the Greek word ekklesia, which should be, as William Tyndale rightly did, translated as “assembly, congregation, gathering”. That refers to the people, a called out and separate community. The word ‘church’ actually does refer to a physical building/house/structure. And for you to say the ‘church’ is ‘the people’ is actually incorrect, proving you are in error, ignorant of history and the biblical idea of community. You can look this up. The Greek word for ‘church’ or closest to it, is kuriakos or kuriakon which is only used twice in the entire New Testament, once by Paul, once by John. We were given the word church, which is a translation of German/Latin ‘kirche’ from the Greek ‘kuriakos’ by King James Bible fame…and it was done on purpose because by that time there was an established business model of ‘church.’ They chose to protect it. Even the Reformers missed this. It has ruined the idea of community and gathering and mutual participation within a spiritual gathering. If you agree that the Bible is somehow the ‘inspired’ ‘Word’ of God profitable for faith, practice, doctrine, and the like you will have to defend your use of the word ‘church’ because it is an incorrect translation, and therefore, all that you think of as ‘church’ that you are eisegting back into the premise of the New Testament style of gathering stands upon shaky ground…the ground of tradition but not truth. The reason earnest seekers of truth and the Yeshua the New Testament presents are leaving ‘church’ is because they are starting to be drawn by God out of them to seek out ekklesia…for they are institutional, dominated by structure and hierarchy, and most believers are actually kept immature by their inability to exercise their spiritual gifts within them. Sitting in a pew or ‘Sunday School’ class or ‘small group’ class an hour or two a week after singing a few songs is not going to spiritually prepare people for the dark days ahead in their own personal lives or corporately within a nation in its cultural death throes. All the sermon series in the world, all the programs, all the 501c3 merger with the government to keep all that $$$ for yourself due to tax exemptions, isn’t going to help people stay sane when God deals with the USA as God has dealt with other countries/nations in the past. Your ‘churches’ collect wealth, but not for helping the poor and needy and sick and fatherless and widows, but so that you can buy influence to have a seat in the halls of power and spiritual ‘entertainment’ thereby proving that the Protestant Reformation was always doomed to be as ecumenical and inclusive as the Roman Catholic whore. People are leaving because God is actually saving them. Yeshua is drawing men and women to himself, to his community, to his ekklesia. “Upon this rock I will build by CONGREGATION/COMMUNITY…” not ‘church’. The rock of the revelation that struck Cephas/Peter like a thunderbolt epiphany that day, “Attou hou haMashiach, ben-Elohim chayim”, or “you are the Christ, the son of the Living God.”

  2. Thomas Borboa on June 5, 2020 at 8:06 am

    About the reasons people are leaving the “church.” In short, it’s not because of “post-modern” thinking. It is because many are becoming aware that what is considered the church is just not in the bible. No where in the new testament do we see what’s represented in reality and people are not interested in this business called church, PERIOD!

    • Robert Olson on June 9, 2020 at 1:11 pm

      In the beginning was the Word and the Word with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him were all things made without Him nothing was made…. So why does my church deny this? Instead my church wants to contemplate on the latest research from Barna that explains and excuses our dwindling numbers! My church wants to explain the excellency and supremacy of our “theology” and bash other christian churches theology! I have been trained in the Seminary and have a Deaconical degree. I sit in stunned silence as the churches run from the word….led by the pastors (CEOs) and “elders” many of whom I have counseled for sexual immorality, alcohol and drug use and anger issues that has spilled into the congregation. I can see why the church has become repulsive to the Christian and of no use to the seeker. I would like to experiment with the rebirth of the Church in Antioch. Word, Fellowship, Community, Service.

      • Jeremy Bickel on June 9, 2020 at 1:50 pm

        “Master Jesus, make us go to You! Cause us to trust You in simplicity and honor You with all our strength as we admonish and build up the siblings. Change our minds to stop looking at the World’s wisdom. Find us yearning toward You when You return, and make us trust You, God, even if You kill us! Hold us in the palm of Your faithful hand, and make us struggle sincerely as we rest in the peacefulness You instill, Greatest God. Keep us loving You. Amen.”

      • Rev J on July 5, 2020 at 8:05 pm

        Hi All,
        Plain and simple facts. The Christian/Catholic church of today has become a place run by a deep state bunch bent on changing the original scriptures to serve Satan and not God. Does anyone out there really believe that God or Jesus would allow us to stain His virgin bride, the church. Just as God took away the Jews right to Him so I now believe He has done to s as well. This corrupt clerical culture that now exists and runs our church is not looking to be the “good shepherds” but are the serpents in the garden to bring down the church and as many of the followers as it can persuade to follow this new wishy washy faith. Father Gobbi locution, that he received from Mother Mary, is coming true as we speak. This corrupt Christian/Catholic church will fall and only a remnant Christian/Catholic church will remain but it will be filled with true believers not the C.I.,N.O.s of today. What is a C.I.N.O. you ask? A Christian/Catholic In Name Only. Our Christian/Catholic churches are filled with them today. The pope who now sits on the papal throne is a deep state faker, Too bad for us. Archbishop Sheen stated “Who’s going to save our Church? It’s not our bishops, it’s not our priests and it is not the religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that the priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and the religious act like religious.” One more I promise but it was stated in the late 1800’s. William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army siad; “The chief danger of the 20th century will be religion without the Holy Spirit, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell.” What a prophetic statement. Is this not what we are witnessing today?
        Rev J

  3. Kevin Untener on May 26, 2020 at 7:56 pm

    I remember commenting here in the past, but don’t quite remember what I said. Either way, I was wrong to comment on here or anywhere for that matter. Any grievances one may have with another is to be worked out with the one they have it with, not on a blog. So I misspoke. A good church within the Church will instill a foundational seed to sustain a lifetime. If you are leaving church for more time on Sunday that’s one thing, If you are leaving church because of issues, at least bring them up first and try to work them out. Work out your own salvation. I had no issue with the church I left, but may have had issues with its mother church and didn’t air it out in the most prudent fashion. Unfortunately those churches are pretty closely tied and I may have caused issues commenting on this Blog. My apologies.

  4. Bob Emery on May 22, 2020 at 4:15 pm

    Do you really think the church would have a place for me: an elderly, single, introverted, rather socially inept man? If so, you’re believing your own propaganda. The church is a place intended to reassure the conventional young to middle-aged nuclear family that it is doing the right thing. The church has room for no one else.

    • Jason Mauk on May 26, 2020 at 10:14 am

      Actually, Bob, the above article shows the opposite. The church is a people–a broken, sinful, at times God-opposing and human offending people. And in God’s perfection and holiness and wisdom, He has chosen to use people to influence other people in order to more clearly see Him–the One who is perfect. This is not merely for young to middle aged; it is for the oldest in society also, in order that every human being can begin to see themselves in light of the One who is not broken and sinful being revealed at times in those who are, as they find in Him their greatest treasure. The oldest in our communities can be the most influential as they desire to not waste their influence in their later years by revealing the One who is patient with the young to middle-aged.

    • Susan Browning on May 28, 2020 at 3:11 pm

      My church is filled with them and women too because I happen to be one of them. Keep going!!!

  5. Laurence D'Alberti on May 8, 2020 at 3:12 am

    I thought I surrendered to Christ and accepted Salvation 20 years ago. It was a straight up deception. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations – you know him being God and all that – he can do anything right? Wrong! From the first day I accepted Christ I lost my personal life and ended up alone for 20 years straight and depressed about it. I couldn’t even find one single woman at the Church that I could even just talk to never mine anything else. 20 years of my life gone – poof – just like that. That is not what I signed up for and I’m angry and bitter my life ended up this way when I thought God would give me a life – he gave me isolation and solitary confinement for 20 years. Have you ever heard of a worse abomination of women treating a man that bad? If this is Salvation – I want out ASAP – how do I reverse the process? Do I have to pray to Satan to get God off my back tormenting me?

    • Michael Schmidt on May 9, 2020 at 3:51 pm

      The church is going off a cliff. God never intended for a church to be unbalanced, and these worldly seeker driven churches are unbalanced. They compromise biblical standards. Too much emphasis is put on doing whatever it takes to grow the church and win the lost. These churches are worldly. We must not act like the world to reach the world, and that is what these churches are doing. Too many are led by unqualified or under qualified pastors and staff. Take a look at Joel Osteen America’s favorite evangelical preacher. He has no ministry credentials. his messages are unbiblical. Today’s church would rather have an unqualified hipster pastor than an older, wiser more experienced pastor. the church is screwed up. A lot of the music is awful. messages are little sermonette pepe talks. The church has burned to many people, being more about power and love. I totally get it why people do not go to church anymore. – Michael Schmidt D.Min. Ed.D. ABD

      • Michael Schmidt on May 9, 2020 at 3:54 pm

        should say the church is more about power than love. should say pep talk not pepe talk

    • pradeep ivon on May 9, 2020 at 8:45 pm

      dear Laurence, i feel for you and would have surely felt same way at your younger age (i am married with family of 2 daughters) but wondering what exactly happened when you accepted Christ and what kind of church or fellowship you were attending where everyone boycotted you. Yes carrying the cross of Jesus isolates you from the world and your outlook to the world (materialism, success & ambition) must change because all my life i have been a regular church guy and was active since the youth days (59 now) but it is only in recent about 4-5 years i have started taking the Word of God seriously after i witnessed incidents in my life where i was miraculously saved in a certain deadly car accident and then during a leg fracture while on leaves at home started watching God Tv -these incidents plus sudden thunderbolt of fatal sickness of wife (brain tumor-surgery etc) in which the fervent prayers of all friends, family & church have indeed given her healing and carried her till date in the 2nd year whereas the neurosurgeon had given no hopes being grade 4 cancer, this also changed my outlook to the conventional church and gave better insight of the Bible. I am sure there are people out here in the world who always connect to each other no matter what your belief/ ideology.
      and now this global suffering and shut down of churches has indeed revealed that the Word of God is the only truth and Jesus is the only name above all names and we all must take this opportunity to go deeper into our own study of Bible and start reaching out to others as the final great mission of Jesus expects from us otherwise whatever we may do it is vain if we have not listened and obeyed our savior Lord- you are on the right track dear brother let us know what exactly you mean by ´accepted christ´!

    • Jeremy Bickel on May 12, 2020 at 1:09 pm

      He called and you called back. You belong to Him. Give in. Do you understand how good He is?! He is your life, and if you are obstinate about it, He will still have His way with you, but it will hurt bad. Tell Him your frustrations, and ask Him what He wants you to do instead of your unfulfilled desires. He has something that will fulfill you more, but if you are petulantly disregarding Him, then He has to make you feel very bad and rile you up just to get your attention! See? He is sovereign over you and the entire Universe! Don’t let His slow gentleness make you think that He doesn’t really control you or His toughness make you think He doesn’t love you. Like a father who knows how to handle his children, Master Jesus Christ handles us firmly out of love to *change* us into something that He has planned for us since before the world began!! Let Him.

    • Chaz on May 26, 2020 at 9:49 am

      Not everyone is meant to get married and to even stay married. Paul gives his explanation of this in 1stCorinthians Chapter 7.

      Sometimes working on strengthening our faith by studying the bible can help us all to deepen our faith overall. We know that God does have a plan for all of us; sometimes it involves a wife or husband or not, and children or not. We think these human desires are up to us and there lies the problem.

      Being Christians requires us to become humble, patient, forgiving, loving, peaceful, kind, gentle, disciplined and faithful and these are things we all have to deal with and work on and often take a lifetime of work.

      We fool ourselves if we think that praying to Satan, even for an instant, is the way to get what you want in this life on earth. And that is just what he would like-for us to be fooled. Run, don’t walk, to the nearest dedicated and faithful clergy person you can for guidance and strength.

      • Hayes on May 31, 2020 at 12:42 pm

        Chaz,

        ”Being Christians requires us to become humble, patient, forgiving, loving, peaceful, kind, gentle, disciplined and faithful and these are things we all have to deal with and work on and often take a lifetime of work.”

        This quote, taken from your post, is an extremely common notion within Christendom, and a huge reason why believers become more than frustrated and ultimately throw in the towel. Even Christians can no more fulfill this list of “dos” and “don’ts” than fly.

        Literally, the only difference between a Christ follower and someone who has never met Him is that one has been made alive spiritually through the Holy Spirit, and the other has not.

        Forgiveness, love, peacefulness, humility, and grace are attributes placed within us as we mature, not “a lifetime of work“, as you put it. A true believer clings to God through Jesus Christ no matter how difficult life becomes because of the power placed within them to do so. The true believer is weak, frail, messy, sinful, and needy. In a nutshell, the Christian life is about resting and rejoicing in the work already done in our behalf, and spreading that good news as a result. It is not a work list.

        “I can’t do all this… I can’t be what God wants me to be…“ There you have it. Of course we can’t, and the sad reality that this is what we get from many pulpits does more harm than good.

    • Robert Olson on June 9, 2020 at 1:19 pm

      Are you angry at God? Tell Him! Tell Him what you believed you would achieve from being a Christ – follower! Hold nothing back! And when you have completely emptied yourself to Him be silenced and open to the answer He is going to provide. Twenty or one hundred years may seem a long time but nothing compares to eternity! God loves you dearly (no matter what you think or the world tells you). He has made you fearfully and wonderfully, He knew you before you were knitted in the womb. And the devil? He doesn’t care a whit about you! He hates Jesus and wants to destroy something Jesus loves. YOU! Be strong and courageous dear friend!

    • Jenny on June 16, 2020 at 8:57 am

      Hey Lawrence:) It doesn’t sound like you truly were born again, thus, having received the Holy Spirit. The biggest misconception today is that we can save ourself, having not heard a calling in our spirit. The Holy Spirit must be dealing with us (drawing us to Christ) when we call to be saved because only the Holy Spirit knows when our heart is sincerely ready to take up our cross and daily and follow the Lord. Jesus Himself said “I am the way, the truth and the Life, no one goes to the father but through Me” and then He says this “No one comes to me except my Father draw him”.

      One way to know if your heart was sincere when you “thought you were saved 20 years ago” is to ask yourself what the motive was behind asking to be saved? Did you feel genuine repentance, knowing that you had been living wickedly and you KNEW the you were in direct opposition to God and needed to realign yourself with Him? Or was it all about making sure you went to Heaven? Did you seek His face? Did you have a hunger for Jesus and a thirst for the Word? Did you begin to see the things that are perfectly fine and normal before for their true sinful nature. True repentance leading to salvation brings true change of nature. Not a forced change of lifestyle but rather a natural change of ones old nature, usually starting with this new weird love, even for people that you don’t even know. You quit doing the things that you used to love but begin to be repulsed by. It’s an earmark of the indwlling of the Holy Spirit. You said that you wanted God to stop torturing you, pray to Him and ask Him to lead you to true repentance by helping you hate what is wicked and love what is good. It sounds like you need to get on your knees and cry out to God to deliver you from Satan, because it’s Satan that is trying to get you to curse God, just like he was trying to do with Job. Notice that it was when Job fully surrendered to God that He received back everything he had lost, and doubly so. I’ll pray for you my friend. God is faithful. We are the the unfaithful ones who separate ourselves from Him.

    • Jenny on June 16, 2020 at 9:16 am

      Also, I say this with love and pray you take this the way my heart intends 🙏🏻 I went back and mulled over your comment again and it struck me that it seems as though you were trying to fill the void in your heart that was meant for the love of Lord with the love of fleshly things. We have all done it. We always think that a new man or a new woman is the answer! That’s it, we say! If I just find the right one I will be happy and content. Sometimes God’s plan for us doesn’t look anything like we think it should look. Could it be that He’s kept you alone because you said you wanted Him but then sought-after everything besides Him? Was He in your heart? Or only in your pocket? I don’t know. But these are honest questions to ask yourself as you seek counsel from the Lord. You may even go so far as to ask Him to reveal if you were doing any of these things and if that’s why. If He shows you that there are truths, confess, repent and ask Him to help you do it right this time. The fact that you are on this blog post makes me feel that He is working on your heart and gives me hope that you are very close indeed to the saving hand of the Lord🙏🏻 God bless, I’m praying for you brother 🙏🏻

    • Natividad Mendoza on July 5, 2020 at 6:30 pm

      Simple, You have the wrong choices and don’t blame God, your life is your own responsibility! Probably you need God the most right now, Bless you, son

  6. Richard Archer on April 26, 2020 at 10:28 pm

    Maybe you should start out by saying the Church is Perfect but Christians make mistakes. Likewise maybe you should say worship instead of church. We come together to praise (worship) God and on the First Day of the Week, The Lord’s Day to remember the Life, Death and Resurrection of the Son of God, The Word, The Light and the Savior. God took notice of us and added us to The Church.

    • Kathy Julian on May 3, 2020 at 11:19 am

      I’m being your by my husband and mother that I’d I hi to sb5013c church I’ve been deceived because they don’t teach the truth. I was raised in the church and have ministers in my family. If I go to church come back feeling wonderful and happy I walked through the doors and I’m told how could you go there. My husband thinks that God wants us to expose the evils of our government and 5G and Illuminati I tell him I’m not concerned because I have no control over them what I have control of is reading the Bible and praying to God for strength to overcome what’s ahead of me and to forgive me for the sins I know and send that I don’t. Am I wrong? I don’t think so I’m told that if I don’t believe like they do then I’m a lost soul. This is coming from people that don’t talk to others that at one time money and things of this earth were so important. They don’t look happy and they don’t talk about happiness. I tell everyone I know about God and all the miracles and things that he has done and provided for me and others who believe in him. I might not know my scriptures but I know that our God is a forgiving and wonderful God my husband said he got a vision from God of what he needs to do when he was young. He says he doesn’t need to read the Bible anymore because he’s already read it and doesn’t need it He needs to know about the evils of the world now , he’s so angry and it’s full of hatred towards our government and the United States. He says God wants to expose them.. Is that true. He watches a few people on YouTube who are against the government but they use scriptures to show that what they say and believe is scripture. I will go and look up scriptures that show what God promises us and guides us and he says I’m wrong that’s not what it means. He has gotten so angry with me and he’s evil things to me and wants to strike me and I feel like I’m being attacked because I don’t think the way to God is focusing the evils if the word and what I need to make me stronger is what I feel I have to do to be closer with God. Because when I look at the evils of the world and to being consumed by that that’s time taken away from me given God the glory. I have no place to go right now, I’ve supportted him for most of our 25 years together.. please pray for me to continue in the way I’m going and bring peace to my home. If you would answer my questions and send it to me so I can show him maybe I can show him why I feel the way I do in order for us to get closer with the Lord. The more we are filled with his grace and glory the last room is in us for hatred condemnations of others, and be at peace knowing our God is a forgiving God and I give him all the glory and that’s who I repent to.

      • maggie rose on May 4, 2020 at 8:29 am

        Hi. Please leave your abusive husband, speak to somebody you trust, a friend, a colleague, phone a women’s helpline, anything, your husband is going to ruin the rest of your life and control you, you cannot see it but I have gone through it. Pray to God for help too but you must get yourself out of your situation or tell your husband to get help for his problems because you cannot go on like this. I know it is hard to make the first step, you don’t know how to start changing things but you have to be strong and make that first step, do something to change things or it will get worse and you will get more and more sad and maybe even depression will set in which is not a good road to go down, believe me! If church makes you happy then go, don’t let your husband stop you – talk to someone in your family, you say there are ministers in your family, can you talk to them? There must be someone, just one person, you can confide in and ask for help and advice as your home situation is not a good one and you deserve to be happy – I am 57 and been on my own after an abuse relationship, not hitting but he controlled me and I was desperately unhappy – on my own for 15 years now and never regretted getting out of that. If you love your husband and want to be with him then talk to him sincerely and tell him you are unhappy and things need to change, if you do not love him and want out you need to do something fast! I will pray for you, please don’t stay as you are or things will get worse, do something to improve your life. God bless you.

        • steve on May 25, 2020 at 2:30 pm

          excuse me. But telling someone to leave their spouse for any reason other than what Jesus states is wrong. You should be praying with them, encouraging them to work their marriage in a Godly way.

          • Renee Schaecher on July 13, 2020 at 1:49 pm

            abuse is not part of the agreement. If she is in danger emotionally and /or physically she can leave. he has choosen to love another. The advise given to her is good. Work it out if you can but if his anger and violence is ruining your life then respect his choice and move on with what God wants you to do. God does not require one to stay when there is danger to life as she discribes….



      • Jeremy Bickel on May 12, 2020 at 1:29 pm

        Master Jesus, You know the problems we face when our loved ones are full of hatred and obstinate disregard of Your will. Please give us peace of mind to continue to rely on You no matter what others do. Make us loving in the face of hatred and generously giving, doing what we know You want us to do, even in the face of fearful abandonment that disregards You in search of fear-laced lusts. You know how to break the strongholds. Break them in this case, and glorify Yourself by transforming the lives of all those whom You know belong to You, Master Jesus. Thank You. Amen.

        Salvation doctrine: Doing Romans 10:9a & 10:10b, due to believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, results in Romans 10:9b & 10:10a.

        Start there. Get to know God’s loveliness and helps and gentleness and truth and kindness and sincerity, and endure dear sister, not in fear, but in faith, strongly.

        Let it all be as God wills it in Jesus’ name to His glory.

  7. Atu Lagi on April 23, 2020 at 5:51 pm

    I’m enjoying the reading this morning. Like many of you, we have been disappointed with the church. The building, the organisation, with all the structures etc. I grew up with the concept that church was to do with the venue, where you go for worship, and the church as the building or house of God, and everything that associates with it is the church.
    Today I have been set free delivered by the idol called the church to how it was preached and reinforced by many who have either misled people or have taught on the subject. I don’t have to be in a church building to be the church. I am the church, the body of Christ, the living temple of God. That does not mean that we become and island but the bible encourages us not to forsake the habit of meeting together( Fellowship)
    It’s sad to see that the church is riddled with all kinds of secular ideologies, worldly-systems in trying to sell or promote the church. Jesus said if you love one another then the world will know that you are my disciples. Acts 2 how the believers lived their lives was so amazing that God begins to add numbers to the fellowship. People were drawn into the fellowship not because of good technology and don’t get me wrong its good to use this means of tech as a way of communication. But, the way they lived their lives that became very attractive. My prayer as a Christian and as a pastor that we will go back to scripture. Many of this also had to do with the use of language that brings a lot of confusion and misunderstanding? today when people asked me if I went to church, I respond by saying no I didn’t I am the church, but I went to fellowship with other Christians.
    I would love to expound a bit more but I will stop there for now and might continue later on. pray the lords blessing as we serve our Lord and King Jesus Christ.

    • Jeremy Bickel on May 3, 2020 at 8:11 am

      “Master Jesus, let us always remember that we do have all spiritual blessings in the Heavenlies. Bolster our faith in You on this Earth, and give us what we physically need. Make us a beacon of light, and make us salt on the Earth to Your glory, great God. Amen.”

    • Monica Rodriguez-Corona on May 11, 2020 at 7:31 pm

      I am so appreciative of your beautiful and honest comment, as well as Carey’s wonderful article. How relieving, refreshing, and encouraging it is to read and know, first, that other brothers and sisters in Christ have come to learn, realize, and to experience the church the way our Faithful Lord Jesus describes it and teaches us about in Scripture. And secondly, that I am not and have never been alone. I so much resonate with your comment. Thank you again for sharing from your faithful servant’s heart and love of our Good Father God. Praised and Honored be to Him for spiritual discernment among the brethren! May His grace and mercy be with you all at all times in Jesus name.

  8. APKun on April 22, 2020 at 4:59 am

    That God would use ordinary, broken human beings as vessels of his grace, and delight in it, is awe-inspiring. He’s proud of how his grace is beating through your imperfect-but-redeemed life and through the church (have you ever read Ephesians 3: 10-11?).

  9. APKun on April 22, 2020 at 4:20 am

    That God would use ordinary, broken human beings as vessels of his grace, and delight in it, is awe-inspiring. He’s proud of how his grace is beating through your imperfect-but-redeemed life and through the church (have you ever read Ephesians 3:10-11 ?).

  10. Joseph Hammond on April 14, 2020 at 8:14 pm

    Thank you for sharing this info, I truly liked your storytelling fashion.

    • Moji ok on April 17, 2020 at 12:13 am

      I love this response. Thanks for this. So true and relevant even now.

    • Lisa Champion on April 20, 2020 at 12:12 pm

      When writing something like this, consider the audience and not just want you are compelled to communicate. This whole thing says leaving is a “mistake” and that people “should” be fascinated by the imperfection of the church. While it’s a dope revelation for you, someone hurting from the church will need more than religious obligation and what you think they should feel in order to re-engage. I still attend church despite years of hurt, because I realize it’s helped me more than it’s hurt me. I realize that allowing myself to be exposed to healthy Christians (after learning to establish the right boundaries) will challenge me not to end up following a Jesus that agrees with me and makes me feel perfectly comfortable. I have had to deliberately separate what the church is with who Jesus really is. I have taken breaks to sit with God and worship in for a month before returning. I listen to sermon messages with solid teaching to make sure I remember who the person is beyond the building. I read my bible. I still attend small groups and women’s groups. I mean, I relate to those who have walked away so reading this, I see how it misses the mark. Rather, show people how to re-engage in a healthier way, and don’t call what they’re doing a mistake. Of course you think that. They know you do. Speak to them where they are, not where you are.

  11. pradeep ivon on April 14, 2020 at 5:43 am

    since the spread of the Corona pandemic across the world all worship places have been shut down including the local church we used to go and entire lent period has been spent in isolation at home I understand that with locked down churches we are prevented by the Lord from exercising an external ritualistic form of worship that was giving us a false sense of being faithful in fact i have realized now is the time to introspect our faith in the Lord and check whether our lives are justified and righteous and if we are indeed christian believers (different from being a church attendee); during this period as the services are being telecast on social media by all church pastors i understand it is now duty of a mature christian to diligently study the word, understand it and attempt to reach out to non believers in a sermon or message sent on social media – social distancing between people should tell us to keep intimate proximity to our saviour Lord Jesus in whatever time we have on earth:not being pessimist but realization has to dawn on believers to carry out our duty of the great mission of Jesus Christ- to witness and tell about Him to each and everyone as no greater sign on end times have been seen in our generation than this terrible pandemic threatening to devour the humanity-which is also part of several prophecies in the Holy Bible. God bless you dear sisters & brothers in Christ!

    • Hector Hernandez on April 16, 2020 at 7:12 pm

      Amen to you. My faith has gotten firmer in my belief that “God Loves You” God shows His love through His Son Jesus. Who is our doorway…

  12. Heather Z. on April 13, 2020 at 6:47 pm

    The problem with “Church” is that most of them belong to the Harlot of Babylon. They don’t teach sound doctrine, and they are as worldly as a country club. Yes, I’m tired of Church, because I can’t find one that demands holiness from it’s members; there’s no accountability — NONE! So the time of the church as we know it is coming to an end, it’s time once more for a wilderness experience, to be alone with God in prayer and in his word. And I for one, am loving it! Who needs unity when the unity they offer is error? Not me! I am a Church of one — two if you count Jesus as High Priest, and I do!

    • JOHN MOORE on May 3, 2020 at 6:22 am

      One with another is all over the New Testament. You and Jesus, your High Priest, are to share life one with another. Christ is not the “another.” People are. You alone are not the body of Christ. We are.

      Who are YOU holding accountable? Looking for accountability? Disciple someone in Christ and hold him accountable as he will then do with you. Certainly you do not intend to hold Christ accountable, do you? There is no such thing as a church of one.

      I hope you have some appreciation for me holding you accountable to this truth.

  13. Joan Ginsbutg on April 5, 2020 at 8:09 pm

    I would love to have a printed copy of this article for my daughter. Is it possible to send this to me or show how I can print a “condensed” version” of the article? “Christians who are Done with Church”

    • Gai on April 18, 2020 at 11:58 pm

      If you open a Word Document you can save a copy of the article there and then condense it yourself, deleting parts if you feel the need to do so, and then save changes and print your shorter version of the article.

      To save document to Word , first press Control A on the web page to highlight the article, then Control C to copy then go to your new Word document and press Control V to paste the article there.

      I hope this helps, Joan.
      Just a thought – is the Lord using the gift of ministering (giving practical help) in this virtual church situation that we find ourselves in?

  14. Aileen Rodriguez on March 25, 2020 at 2:41 am

    I don’ t know what are you thinking about Church but it’s not only for a place for worship. According to me Church is the place where people together without any discriminations, spreading love and faith and also good messages.

    • Antony on March 25, 2020 at 4:24 pm

      I find it difficult going to church and it’s not a reflection on ANY of the people who go there, they all go out of their way to make me feel welcome. It’s not them it’s me 🙂

      I have some sort of mental idiosyncrasy that makes me long for people’s company and greatly enjoy it but at the same time look forward to the relief of being alone again. I tried to explain this to my gf Prue a couple of years ago when we were splitting up but I think I made a mess of it.

      I suspect that there’s a place for me, a very sparsely populated place, in God’s plan and maybe I can fit in with that plan without having to go to a church. I hope so. I was an SDA for 13 years and these days there’s a cafe in town I go to on Saturdays where I sit with my iPad and a long black coffee (just one a week – occasionally two) and study God-stuff. I write about it as I do this; this helps me with discernment and is something I’ve done since I started prep school back in 1951. It also helps me remember the logic behind my beliefs concerning God, Jesus, the Bible, etc. Now and then I get a chance to talk about that with people when they ask me what I’m reading or writing.

      I like to think mine is the personality that God meant me to have (tho could be wrong about that) and that God’s happy for me to go with that. I sincerely hope that is the case and that I’ll be joining you all in the after-life one day.

      Btw they’ve closed all the cafes in Australia since last Saturday. And churches. No doubt there’ll be plans B for both of us.

      Thanks Aileen, I wrote this for general community consumption not as a reply to you but took advantage of your post until I can work out how to otherwise post a comment.

    • Dale Hanken on May 12, 2020 at 9:20 am

      I quite church because all I found was discrimination. Lies like love the sinner, hate the sin. Whose sin. Prayers for discrimination against fools who don’t want to sell to the LGBT. I don’t care who someone loves if they are happy. God says not to judge and we are all sinners doesn’t say what is worse sin
      Then the fools say the earth is 10000 yrs ago. Surprised those dinosaurs didn’t eat those jews in the desert. No I’m done. I won’t pay a bunch of crooks for their prayers

  15. Jim on March 22, 2020 at 8:08 am

    What about many of us good single men that don’t have a wife and family? And many of us would’ve really wanted that as well.

  16. Kenneth Gray on March 12, 2020 at 11:50 am

    I stopped going to Church because I can’t afford to go.
    God hasn’t given me enough to be a proper Christian. I can’t afford to pay tithes, give offerings, help the poor and pay my expenses. You don’t know how often I don’t have clean clothes, because I don’t have the money needed. When I look in a modern church, all I see is excessive wealth. God doesn’t need Mahogany pews, or a gigantic pipe organ, not to mention the expensive stained glass or the gold decorations. On top of that most Churches treat you with distain if you can’t afford 10% every week. I get paid once a month so 10% every week adds up to 40% to 50% of my income. The way that Churches seem to covet money is appalling. Look at TV preachers, always demanding money for God’s free word. Churches (religion) is no longer about fellowship, God or Jesus, it has become a greed inspired business. Every week the Pastors sermon seems to include preaching about giving more money to the church. How many billions of dollars worth of treasure does the Catholic church hoard in the Vatican. I was told by a priest that the riches are God’s and can’t be spent to help people in need. The same priest said that it is every day Christians that are to help the poor, not the churches responsibility. I agree that Christians do have a responsibility to help the poor ( even when you are one of the poor), but I believe that the church should be helping people. Not hoarding wealth, God doesn’t have a use for riches. Church is always demanding more. Thanks for the opportunity to be “heard” and may God Bless You.

    • Guest on March 20, 2020 at 6:43 am

      I go to a Independent Baptist Church. They’re one of the groups that tend to believe in the Bible the most. They don’t force offerings, but they still use the collection plate for those that are willing to donate. It’s always good to go to a church that teaches the Word of God.

      • ChurchNBackbone on May 3, 2020 at 12:02 am

        “I go to a Independent Baptist Church. They’re one of the groups that tend to believe in the Bible the most. They don’t force offerings, but they still use the collection plate for those that are willing to donate. It’s always good to go to a church that teaches the Word of God.”
        Teach or they dictate? I will never darken the door of another IFB church!

    • Linda on April 11, 2020 at 5:41 pm

      Kenneth, I’m sorry about your experience. Yes, there are churches that seem to be constantly asking for money. If this has been your experience, please keep looking at different churches and ask God to send you to the right one. He will. God does tell us to pay tithe (10% of your income, not 40 or 50%), but He also promises to bless us when we do. Read that in Micah. Also, though churches are places to fellowship and worship God, your duty is to Him, not to the people running the church. In other words, read your Bible and follow it, not the people. Blessings as you keep searching for Him.

    • Paul on April 13, 2020 at 2:03 am

      This article is a terrible attempt to guilt Believers. I got so screwed by this huge mega church in Rancho Cucamonga, CA. The pastor (who is a disciple of Oral Robert’s ) runs an abundant $$$$ factory machine. Fancy cars, buildings and productions. A cheap imitation of Hollywood. And absolutely no accountability between attendees and leadership. Things get swept under the rug if ya know what I mean. I was devastated by what happened to me there and how I was treated when I transparently told leadership.
      I’m done with going to church. Hypocrites, backstabbers and liars.
      I will continue to read my Bible and pray and be accountable to my friends. I will also listen to my favorite pastor online, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!

  17. Pastor John Wagner on March 3, 2020 at 10:40 am

    What they will achieve in life who have done with the church? Patience is important, if you are keen to enjoy good times, be prepared for bad times as well.

    • William on July 3, 2020 at 2:13 am

      Let’s see, I’ve achieved peace and a better understanding of the gospel.

      Doesn’t sound like you’re concerned about the spiritual health of the people here who have endured spiritual abuse, “Pastor.” Sounds more like you’re interested in protecting your line of work.

  18. Samantha on January 19, 2020 at 2:46 pm

    I’m transgender. I also identify as a conservative(ish) Christian.

    I take to heart the verse in 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 where it says
    ” 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.”

    The bulk of the LGBT ppl hate the church because they tell themselves that they are not sinful, or that the church hates them because it tells them the truth. Yes, you are sinful. So am I. So are drunks, con artists, prostitutes, and depressed people. That’s truth. “If we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves” and more importantly we are not doing our best not to be mastered by anything. We are letting sin control our political and social behaviors.

    So back to the point. These people want to remake the church so that it tells them what they want to hear, refusing to accept it until they split the church or something. If you killed two kids because you got really drunk one night and drove around, which is a more authentic message? “You did nothing wrong, you’re not responsible.” Or “yeah that did happen, but we’re gonna see if we can make you feel welcome and/or get you sober.” No, I don’t think gays need to change to be right with God. I’m LGBT myself, and I know that grace is about God redeeming at Christ’s expense, but one thing missing from this is a sense where we actually understand this isn’t of handing out a free pass to people who want to undermine the message of grace to turn it into “I’m okay you’re okay” time. Nah. I’m sinful, you’re sinful, now we need to understand this in order to understand why Jesus is in our lives, not go around destroying churches because they hurt our feelings.

    My church is about to split, and I honestly do not know what to do now.

    • wayne on January 29, 2020 at 2:55 pm

      If there is one thing God hates, its people who’s (inner) docile gullible beings (he describes as sheep) being led astray by the (inner) shepherds of church leaders by way of false teaching upon what he describes (metaphorically) as hills and mountains..beds..vineyards…secret chambers…stones..High places..and many many more.

      The bible is a spiritual book, the problem Iv’e had with ‘religious folk’ is they read it with a fleshy mind..and follow it in the same way..literally word for word

      You say people want to re-make the church so that it tells them what they want to hear..who are ‘These people’ that you mention?

      There is a verse in Isaiah 57 (6) which reads..

      Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion, they are thy lot…
      And he finishes by asking
      ‘Should I receive comfort (healing…peace) in these?’

      ‘These smooth stones’ are the very assemblies that will preach the things that the sheeple want to hear and promise the things that sheeple want to have (by way of false prophesies and interpretations of tongues) They tell their flock “everything is going to be alright”
      Hence the question..
      ‘Shall I receive comfort in these?’

      (Jeremiah 5v30-31 is relating to the same thing)

      You say your church is about to split?

      I say..

      Step through the chasm and move on..

      Psalm 91 v16 states that YOU will show him YOUR salvation
      Salvation is truth… So this will be YOUR TRUTH, and YOUR TRUTH (not mine) shall set YOU free

      Sod those who sit on the earthly judgement seats of the ‘High places’
      Prepare YOUR ‘stuff for removing’ (Ezekiel 12) by justifying YOUR reasons for departure..

      And leave

      Keep reading the scriptures, and seek for more of a spiritual understanding of them.

      And as you leave remember Jesus words

      And whosoever shall not receive you…..(Matthew 6v11)

      • Jeremy Bickel on January 30, 2020 at 2:25 pm

        Master Jesus’ is Truth. He sets free those who confess Master Jesus verbally to admit His Lordship openly and believe God resurrected Him, bringing salvation and righteousness in *this* world!

    • Jeremy Bickel on January 30, 2020 at 2:23 pm

      These confessions seem genuine, but you lack two things: 1) Confess verbally and openly admit that Jesus is Master. That is the only way the Bible gives us to be saved. If you are His slave, then 2) because you know that God resurrected Master Jesus, we who call on His name (“Master Jesus”), His slaves will be changed in our bodies when we see Him, and *that* drives us to do *everything* we know that God says He wants and is right. You seem to know that behaving with homosexuality is against God’s command, so do not. If you are totally unwilling, how do you know that the license you take is not an indication that you have not really confessed Jesus is Master? If you hold on to the world’s ways, there is a certain fear that remains, and fear is against your faith. You cannot have faith by willpower, but only by doing from the heart that form of confession He, through the witness of Paul, told us in Romans 10:9; see also verse 10 & 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 for the reasons behind the salvation doctrine of Romans 10:9. Christians do try to do the right thing in every area, and God pulls us up to doing so when we cry out to Him with a whole heart. People feel compelled into sin because of their lusts, and supernaturally compelled because of demons. There is a demon of homosexuality. God graciously warned us against the act. That is why the Church is so very much against it. Do not think of hurt feelings anymore, but laud Christ openly with actions that support words that are of great value in bringing Christians together.

  19. Sam on December 25, 2019 at 10:21 am

    Just saying, maybe it’s time articles like this stop the gaslighting, and the church admits what we already know:

    The. Church. Does. Not. Want. Men. Especially single ones.

    There, I said it, and it’s true. I’m one of the alienated ones, so I should know, and not just with one church.

    The church pedestalizes women and ignores their sin or blames it all on men, while endlessly castigating men for sin both real and imagined and labeling them with every negative label possible, the same way the world does.

    The church worships not The Lord, but weddings, marriage, children and families. The church alienates single men and then asks where they are.

    You, the church, know the answer, and no, it isn’t because the men hate God, it isn’t because they don’t seek The Lord.

    The men are not there because you do not want them there.

    You’d frankly rather they all die and go to hell than interrupt your unBiblical 24/7/365 familyolitry fest.

    As long as ageism, misandry, familyolitry and marriage statism are the orders of the day, the men will stay away.

    But you already know that.

    And last but definitely not least, how about teaching the Word Of God, as in the full council? All you do now is cherry pick verses entirely out of context and make entire doctrines around them.

    • mark kelly on January 9, 2020 at 8:27 pm

      Every self proclaimed christian I come across are all racial homophobes with no respect for women. Ashholes

      • Nback on May 3, 2020 at 12:13 am

        Sounds like you are a Christianphobe…not to mention your strawmans about no respect for women at all & racial homophobes

    • Grace on January 29, 2020 at 8:01 am

      Sam…Your perspective got my attention. I grew up with the nagging feeling that women are “second class” in Biblical history and in the church. However, it did not seem repulsive or unjust because it was Eve, after all, who introduced rebellion against the law of God. However, after years of study, that is, observing “life” from God’s viewpoint, that I realized He created men and women as separate and distinct genders who are dependent on each other allows us to grasp the multifaceted-being of our God. Therefore, whatever the reason that would cause anyone to feel demoted, it is Satan’s intention, not God’s.
      It is IMPERATIVE that we protect gender DISTINCTIVENESS and gender ROLES or we lose our proper understanding of all that God wants us to know to relate to Him properly. GENDER FRAUD is an abomination (stinking sin) to our Creator.

      • Xavier on June 11, 2020 at 10:54 pm

        Grace…(lol)
        This is exactly why people leave the church–idiots who claim to know how God thinks. This judgmental attitude is what will be your downfall. Your sin is not above anyone else’s– sin is sin. However, to the hypocrite (like you) that believes that they speak for God, they have never sinned a day in their life. LOL
        You can not save anyone from hell and you don’t get to decide who will go. Instead of being such a holier than thou hypocritical jerk try praying for someone’s salvation. You will be surprised to know that the hell you find yourself in will be just as hot as anyone else’s

    • JASON on March 20, 2020 at 8:05 am

      If you think women are ” second class” according to the bible, I would like to challenge you with this question.. Why did the son of man, choose a woman to be the very first person to see him after he rose from the dead? Why would man even add that to the bible if for one it wasn’t true or women had little value? I believe its because women are very important to the church

  20. bigpond imap setting on December 3, 2019 at 11:14 pm

    Excellent article..ts a good site to explore ..Thanks for the blog post.Really thank you! Much obliged..

  21. Fred on November 28, 2019 at 9:53 am

    Why am I done with church?

    Because the church is done with me! The church doesn’t want me or people like me in its midst.

    What is my crime? Why am I a pariah and therefore unwanted by the church?

    My age, gender, marital status and parental status. The church does not want single, mature unchilded men in its congregations. Period.

    Considering the last experience I had at church, in which the pastor’s wife – are you freaking kidding me!!! – told me I was being gossiped about after only a few visits where I’d revealed nothing about myself as I was only trying to observe at that point- I thought I would try one more time.

    Knowing already what most of the churches think of people like me, I emailed several churches just to test the waters before going, to see if a mature, single, unmarried and unchilded man would be welcome.

    No church – not one – even cared enough to respond to my questions. Not. Even. One. Let that sink in. I did.

    Now, if I was married with kids, I’d be just another one of the “good guys.” If I was a teenager or even college age, the same.

    But, as a single unmarried mature man, I am only fit to be marginalized and sent to hell.

    When you single ladies wonder where the single men are in church, ask your pastors. The pastors probably don’t want them around. Or, maybe you don’t want them around either.

    Predator. Potential rapist. Toxic masculinity. Creeper. Loser. This is what the church thinks of people like me.

    That’s why I’m sitting here on Thanksgiving Day writing this.

    Thank you so much, church. The love of Jesus is so evident in you. You should be proud of yourselves, in keeping “those people” out of your social club. I’m sure you already are.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 28, 2019 at 10:32 am

      After you let it un-sink in you, be the best Christian they’ve ever seen. Only talk about Christ – you don’t have a family to mention. Talk about Christ, helping them, and not always *just* revealing *them*. What does *Christ* mean to you ..relationship-wise?

      • Fred on November 28, 2019 at 12:11 pm

        Wow. I rest my case.

        • Robbin Meissner on December 5, 2019 at 3:41 pm

          I Have never been so betrayed than by those who sit in the seat of judgment in the name of Christ who loves me. I know they are few and far between who strive to realy know him. I hope for you brother and know the feeling of exile from the hearts that do not know him. Sorrow.

        • Jeremy Bickel on July 3, 2020 at 6:27 am

          Fred. I have no understanding of how you could have taken offense at my encouraging and real response to your dilemma. If you simply hate, then why look for people to try to be around in order to understand Christ together. Go off in your loneliness and find Him – He is there, also, you know. I’m not kidding of being flippant – I am quite sincere. Go away from these toxic churches.

          Do you look for a church that preaches the *real* gospel, or are *you* really looking for a social club? Think about it. Do you want a church that tells you that you are entirely wicked, even in your good works? That’s step 0 of the gospel, you know. Then find one also that tells you – overtly says it from time to time – that salvation comes certainly but only to whoever calls on the name of Master Jesus, due to believing His death is effective to save all who do call on His name in faith. Step 2 isn’t even about salvation anymore, because it’s wrapped up in Step 1. Step 2 says that we get *righteousness* by believing the Resurrection of Master Jesus Christ. Start with a church that knows to tell you *that* (but only if you do confess Master Jesus in these beliefs, please). Their demeaners will make sense to you, and you will be able to have real relationship based on truth in all the corners of existence if you first separate yourself to Christ’s actual Church.

          I have a lot of hope that this can help Christians (and *you* *are* welcome :^D).

      • William on July 3, 2020 at 2:29 am

        Jeremy, after that rude response to Fred, perhaps you should start working on being the best Christian the world has ever seen before you tell others to do so. Or am I asking too much for you to actually lead by example?

        • Jeremy Bickel on July 3, 2020 at 6:29 am

          I’m looking into it, William.

          • William on July 12, 2020 at 12:18 pm

            While you look into it, do us a favor and spare us from your pompous, self-absorbed malarkey.



        • Jeremy Bickel on July 12, 2020 at 12:36 pm

          Can you be more specific? I’m willing to change, but I have to know what to change into. If you give me specific things you have seen that I have done wrong according to the Scriptures, then I desire Master Jesus to *fOrCE* me to change. Perhaps you can help by pointing out my actual error. He will temper me well; I know it; especially as I apply what I know from His Scriptures.

    • Ancient Dave on November 30, 2019 at 3:34 pm

      I am so sorry for your hurt. I have been hurt by the church too. However, I am praying for you. I hated the church so much that there came a time I thought of hurting all them…I was going to kill those in my own church. I was bitter and mad at my church. I was treated like a loser and outsider in my own youth group. I was mad and angry. I just had to go to church because of parents and had no choice, end of the story. I have so many examples of leaders I that I trusted let me down and many others. I got into a dark place, with thoughts of taking matters into my own hands. However, something happened. I realized I had hurt people too and I was no better. I cried out to God to save me and He did. He wrapped me into His arms and worked on my heart…it was a slow pace but He changed me and healed me. In spite of all the pain I have experienced in the church, I am learning to love them anyway because I have been like them too and I am one of them. I am so sorry you are done with the church but if you are, I just want you to know that God never was done with me and I struggle seeing why He is done with you or even His screwed up church. Let me know how I can pray for you.

      • Fred on December 2, 2019 at 3:01 pm

        Well, you could pray that there’s a place for me in Heaven apart from everyone else, if there is a place for me at all. God’s people don’t want me around apparently, so I don’t want to be around them either. I don’t go where I’m not wanted.

        Far be it for me to be someone’s eyesore.

        • Dan on December 2, 2019 at 7:38 pm

          Hey man, I really feel you, and this article doesn’t really help address the issues that we face. I am used to a ton of theological club soda coupled with dogmatic pretentiousness in churches and I’m over it. And I find myself here on this site where they have a Twitter link after every paragraph so you can tweet their most “profound” statements. Kill me. You and I don’t need “church” we need God and fellowship. If you got a discord I’d love to talk to you.

          • Ancient Dave on December 3, 2019 at 5:51 pm

            Dan…..you know I desire and hunger for fellowship! You have no idea how much fellowship I want in the church. I desire it soo much that sometimes I get depressed and feel soo alone and sad. However, God has called to be a pastor and I must have sheep to even shepherd in the first place. So no, I am not giving up on God’s people. You know why? Because God never gave up on me when I was the worse example of what a Christian should be, and shame on us to give up on God’s people and not choose love. We do not need to give up on God’s people….we need to call them back to sound teachings handed down from Jesus, we need to call them back to what the Bible says instead of man says, we need to cry for them and call them back to repentance and turning from their evil ways. However, I cannot do that alone. I need other Christians to do what God needs me to do, and when we give up on God’s people….then you might as well give up on me and leave alone in my little world where so many people have given up on me and left me all by myself. :*(



        • Ancient Dave on December 3, 2019 at 5:41 pm

          I am praying for you to find healing in your heart.

          • Dan on December 4, 2019 at 11:43 am

            Your whole comment just seems so detached from the actual purpose of church. Like really? You take someone’s problem and turn the conversation to being about you? I wasn’t even talking to you. I should go to church so you can shepherd me and if not I’m giving up on God’s people? That’s pretty presumptuous, oh what a pity it is that you just have so much spiritual water in your life and so many good ideas but nobody is around to hear them because they are walking away from you, God’s tool of holy shepherding. I don’t think the completion or execution of the will of God is going to defer in your life based on whether or not people are choosing to not go to your church. I think that God’s will will come to fruition in your life regardless of how much other people go to your church or any church, and let’s not forget that God works in mysterious and sublime ways and it may actually be God’s will that so many are detaching themselves from the contemporary Christian church and attaching themselves to bible study or fellowship without a pundit. Maybe it should be the “shepherds” of these churches looking inwardly to identify if they are actually serving spiritual food or if they’re just jabbering about half truths to make themselves more important seeming rather than humble. I’m just saying, when one person of a certain demographic moves away from a product, it’s their problem. When hundreds or thousands move away from a product they used to use and like, then you gotta start looking at the company.

            “If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it
            out and throw it away from you.”

            Have you even stopped to consider that the church may be the eye in which causes one to stumble?



          • Ancient Dave on December 4, 2019 at 6:12 pm

            Dan….that is so unfair the way you have to responded to me like that.

            For 1) it is not my intention to make this all about myself. But this is a personal topic for me and important to me. So yes there is a personal piece for me just as it would be for anyone in the church. You accused me of being selfish just because I am being transparent. Can’t we be honest with each other?

            2) You don’t know me, you don’t know what I actually believe, you just assume to know me and thus condemn me. Label me with all other Christians or believers. You assumed and judged me like you know my heart and get me. But you don’t know me. Only God does and you have no right to set yourself up as God on the judgement seat. I’m not talking about accountability, this ain’t accountability this is pure condemnation and very unfair and unloving in the way you chose to respond.

            3) I want to make my self clear. I don’t care if you go to my or even church. It is NOT about going to church but it is about being the church. But again you have no idea what I believe, and you just judge me like I do. I meet with two guys, we read the Bible together, we fellowship at restaurants and places we eat. I still call that church by the way. Not going to my church or any church is giving up on God’s people. Giving up God’s people is refusing to hang out or meet any other believer rather that is at a coffee shop, a mall, or whatever. I don’t care where you meet and I will shepherd you regardless if it is at a house or whatever.

            4) I comment like I do because this should be a safe discussion to deal with real and hard issues facing this topic. But instead, like any internet comment section it becomes a place of judgement and condemnation. I forgive you guys by the way.



          • Dan on December 4, 2019 at 7:44 pm

            Okay man, listen. I am and was angry with you. Maybe I was more angry than I needed to be, because I understand the both of us are just two idiots on a keyboard making statements with flawed knowledge. And please trust me that I mean this as gently as possible that I don’t especially care if you or anyone finds anything unfair. Life’s not fair and that’s good because if it was we’d all be damned. What irritates me about what you said, is that I was not talking to you. You have written all over this post and made you points abundantly clear and you chose to butt into a conversation where I was reaching out to try and talk to someone. You seem to not have proofread your post or you are completely ignorant to how it may come across to a reader who is already extremely disenfranchised with the contemporary western christian religion. I really really encourage you to reread what I said and what other people have said to check to see if it may actually apply to you. You come across as insanely pretentious and downright emotionally manipulative. Generally people that identify these things take exception to them. I left the church because I was having to fight it to teach children what the bible actually says. I turned my back on “the church” to turn toward being theologically fed and to be part of fellowship. I don’t care if I turn my back on you if you are not walking with me to actually support my walk with Christ. I’m sure you can sense some anger and resentment from me. That’s good. I don’t need you to say you forgive me. That does nothing for me, mainly because I did not apologize and just saying that you forgive us (btw) just sounds passive aggressive. I’m not used to that. I’m a career infantryman and I’m generally used to people bluntly saying what they mean regardless of who may think it’s unfair, mean, or whatever. So how about this, say exactly what you want and be as honest as you want, and I’ll do the same and we’ll see where that goes? Just remember, I will state my disagreement and it won’t be as tactful as your friends.



          • Ancient Dave on December 5, 2019 at 2:56 am

            Dan…..look man I will admit I probably need to work on my internet skills and ability to communicate. I should do better in how I communicate and respond. You are welcome to believe what you want about me or anyone. You have that right.

            I am signing out.



        • Elle Bee on February 16, 2020 at 9:52 am

          Being rejected by people in church because you are a single man. I am sorry. Rejection sucks. Jesus was rejected by His own. He knows how you feel. I have been mis judged and rejected too by people in church. Rejection and mis judged and gossiped about makes me or anyone want to run and protect themselves from being hurt like that again. But Jesus didn’t run. He suffered the whole thing even into death but came back to life and is ready to receive any one who rejected Him. The Father in the story of the prodigal son was rejected. But he didn’t close himself off. Please forgive the people who were prejudice against you because you are a single man. I know it hurts but don’t give up. Jesus also said if you love those who love you what due is that? But love those who don’t love you. Go to church and draw your strength from Christ to love those blind prejudice people to Christ. I know it’s hard to be where you aren’t wanted. I have been there. I wasn’t the type of person some people wanted in there church. But through Christ I persevered and He changed me and He changed them. I still go through it sometimes. But it makes me more like Christ. Don’t you want to be more like Christ? Well, count the cost. The path of the cross is painful and often feels lonely. But you are never alone. Believe the bible not your feelings or what you see in your circumstances. Trust God is working in what you don’t see in your circumstances.

      • Robbin Meissner on December 5, 2019 at 3:49 pm

        Thank you. How wonderfull is the working of LOVE. His words through believers ministering to one another. I am encouraged. He is in you.

      • William on July 3, 2020 at 2:26 am

        Seriously Dave, you need to get professional help from a therapist or psychiatrist. For your own well-being.

        We are both victims of spiritual abuse. However, having the urge to kill everyone at your church for any reason is absolutely not acceptable and I fear what would happen if you go through that again.

    • Patricia Hampton. the pastor on December 23, 2019 at 7:40 pm

      If you lived in My town we would welcome you with open arms. Everyone is welcome and we except new people as family. Married, single, divorced, black, white. EVERYONE Welcome. My. Vernon, Illinois

  22. Linda on November 22, 2019 at 6:49 am

    To ancient dave: the reason for leaving a “church” in my case is the false teaching in all the churches. I have found one that is expounding scripture, but also preaching to the unsaved in the so called “church” meeting.

    Swap the word church for the ‘ecclesia’ (called out ones) and you have a right meaning of meeting together. When did the ecclesia meeting on a Sunday become an outreach for the unsaved.

    Then there is the problem of seeming to be in an audience looking, rather than being in fellowship with each other and the Holy Spirit leading. The clock has become important though. The thing is, I have been out of church and content, but did not see anyone (retired). No christians I know willing to meet house to house. So I went back to “church.” Maybe when persecution comes it will be different.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:31 pm

      You’re looking for a club structure, where everyone has to say “Jesus is Master” at the door (and “God raised Him from the dead”, as an optional courtesy). It *could* be done. Without this, though, it’s better to both get close enough with some who are not total apostates, in faith believing you are not constantly sinning (with your mature conscience) by being around those who aren’t *quite* completely apostates by everything the Bible says I have to do to establish it, and, in this culture, love and mercy slow me down in my process there – a little for normal matters and not at all for the big ones.. We still watch.

    • Ancient Dave on November 30, 2019 at 3:38 pm

      I agree with you but however if we meet, we must meet together and do life. If we cannot do that then what is the point of being the church. The problem is not where we meet together to do life but the problem is in America….we are giving up on the church aka the people. If the underground church in China is willing to still do like with each other, and not give up on meeting with each other, then what is our excuse? I am hurt, does not match my lifestyle? Really?!?!? You got to be kidding me.

    • Ancient Dave on November 30, 2019 at 3:48 pm

      Dear God, I forgive your people……your church for the hurts they have caused me. Do not hold this sin against them. I know they have hurt me but I refuse to give up on your people, as some are choosing to do. I forgive those people too, please lead them back.

  23. Michaelcla on October 11, 2019 at 12:33 am

    According to Church is a place where everyone is equal and get blessings by Jesus Christ an believes in Humanity.

    • Mikey on November 11, 2019 at 1:44 am

      An absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

      • jacqueline on November 11, 2019 at 4:46 am

        Evidence is all around you but people who are blind cannot see.

        • Tom on November 15, 2019 at 6:33 am

          Please show me the spot in the bible where going into a building and being told to stand, sit, sing, stand, sit, sing (the same songs every week and years), pray, and then pay in advance for a performance while the pastor makes a nice salary, hires family and friends into leadership and grows their business is biblical thing? How about come down to an old fashioned alter and get right or many of the other man made traditions?

          “Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet” Acts 7:48.

          • Jacqueline on November 15, 2019 at 6:39 am

            You are describing a religious organisation. That is not the Lord Jesus Christ snd His teaching.



          • Amy Porter, a learning growing struggling disciple of Christ on November 23, 2019 at 10:17 am

            I can’t show you a spot in the Bible where it says exactly your words, but I can invite you to a church that doesn’t have a paid clergy, doesn’t hire any one and offers everyone the opportunity to serve in leadership positions. A church that reaches out to the “ecclesiastical” and offers them covenants with the Lord, made at an actual alter, and at the same time calling all the “unsaved” to come learn and find salvation thru Jesus Christ. But you might have to leave behind some of your old notions and open your mind and heart to the evidence that God is not dead and has given more evidence of Himself and His Son than just a Bible that has been translated by hundreds of imperfect hands. ❤️



      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:34 pm

        The word “not” is usually in that statement.. Think. What you said is that just because you cannot see it, that means it is not there. That is Humanism, not Christianity.

    • Mikey on November 11, 2019 at 1:47 am

      Religion was invented when the first con man met the first sucker.

      • Jacqueline on November 11, 2019 at 4:52 am

        Religions are invented but The Lord Jesus Christ is real.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:35 pm

        L Ron Hubbard was sorry in the end that he went with religion..

        • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:35 pm

          [Reference Walter Martin on Scientology]

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:32 pm

      Jesus Christ does not bless humanity, but His Own Christians, even when we forget Him, because He has us in holy (special) relationship.

  24. Robert on September 5, 2019 at 8:45 am

    HI, I am unable to find anyone in my community that is willing to get up before dawn and meet daily. I am not a fool, I am sure there are a few that would but I cannot find them. Therefore, I get up and worship, study and pray on my own. My local congregation has very little interest in these things. It”s mostly fundraisers and activities, which I am not that interested in. How do I seek this biblical church experience that you recommend? I have begun praying that God would lead me to these people.

    • Autumn Moon on September 5, 2019 at 5:59 pm

      To Richard Paulson. The fact you have stepped out on your own to perduce your deeper walk with our Lord Jesus Christ doing your worship service is wonderful. I too have been shown by the Lord to step out and embrace him fully take my prayer request for others and the issues that’s coming of the world and just talk to the Lord all through the day to help me with what ever I am doing. I use to be lonely in my walk in Christianity but God showed me in his word if I only have him I have everything. I asked God to use me for his glory. Acts of kindness to others especially Seniors. Go to a nursing home and viset the people there. They are so lonely. I visit the women there you could visit the men. Take the Bible and read to them.God inspired me to sew dresses for little girls I sewed all my life and missed doing it. I do not charge for the dresses for low income families. I know you want Christian fellowship but God wants to use you to lift that lonelyness and fill it with reaching out to others. Be a big brother to kids that have no Dad there for them. Play basket ball with them. God doesn’t want you to take the light of Jesus Christ and his it under a bushel basket filled with lonelyness. Take you talents your hunger for God and share it with others. I am sure there are community needs you can get involved in. God revealed to me and said it’s not about you Autumn it’s about Jesus Christ and taking his word out to a sick and dieing world. I found a church where the preaching is the truth and I go to hear sing worship and the most of the people treat me like a ghost. But I decided those that do that was not going to still my joy. I had Jesus Christ and he looks down on me and sees my face, singing raising my hands prasieing him. And maybe one or two people speak to me but I got Jesus and the devil is not going to cause me to leave where I am growing in the truth. I quit going for a long time and let the devil beat me up with lonelyness. God opened my eyes to see the mess in the churches and the world and I went back to church full of joy leaving I know I got Jesus if I don’t have a soul to care about me. And now the doors are sung open and the devil is on the run. Richard God wants to use you to go out with your beautiful faith you have and share it. He will show you how just trust God.

      • Autumn Moon on September 6, 2019 at 1:03 am

        You will not find a perfect church.you have to ask yourself am I going to worship the Lord or to be received by the people that go their, to fit in. Jesus faced all kinds reactions after rejection, and didn’t fit in anywhere but close to only a very few. He didn’t come to fit in but to be lifted up to draw all into him. He didn’t come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. You can’t make people do what they say they believe in but don’t live it. I use to stay away from these people but I see them an opportunity to go and speak to them now saying things like good to see you today, and those that avoid me a little shunning, I acknowledge them when I work my way to cross their paths with words of kindness received or not. I go to church worship the Lord. I don’t get involved in the massive little events, fundraisers, nor the clicks that is in all Church’s, I do not join membership to any church I belong to Jesus Christ first and foremost and go where he sends me. Have I had to tollerate indiffrence, heartbreak, diliberate actions, yes. Count the cost to truly follow Christ. Sometimes mother’s would let me measure their little girl for a dress and they go on my list. When I finished her 2dresses and call to let them know some want return my call or tell me they don’t want them or give me a wrong number. This has happened once and a while and I am sad because here is a little girl looking forward to her dress at no charge. I find someone to give them to but I think of the little girl that the mother wouldn’t let me give it to her because the mother rejected me and just ran a game on me. I tell them i it’s the love of Jesus Christ. It still gave me an opportunity to at least witness about Jesus. God sees all things. But many received the dresses we hold hands and I pray for them and visit them now and then. They put on their dresses and dance around. I pray for those that I couldn’t reach most of all. Jesus was rejected a lot as those that truly follow him. But worth the journey . The doors are opening. Just don’t give up, don’t quit. Keep the faith.

      • Jacqueline on November 11, 2019 at 5:09 am

        “If I only have Him I have everything.” (Autumn Moon).

        I now know this after years battling with no church fellowship. I eventually settled down after taking hold of the fact that my life is in His hands. Our Lord recently led me to a congregation who stick to the truth and go through scripture verse by verse and book by book. Through seeking God by prayer elders are open to correction. It is an open brethren fellowship with humble elders leading.

    • Autumn Moon on September 8, 2019 at 8:23 am

      I am guilty of getting tired of what I was seeing going on in the church’s and stopped going then went back then stopped and couldn’t wrap myself around what was I looking for and bouncing from here to there. A big turn around tool place one day as I was not praying but (ranting) out loud to God about the reason why I didn’t want to go to church and the things I encountered and saw was not what I read in the Bible. Lets back up just a minute. When I was growing up we didn’t go to church but we had a man to come to the school and have a bible study in the class which is unheard of in today’s time. This helped me to know that God loved me, beyond the chaos going on in my family which was just hell. I talked to God all the time, and picked flowers and laid them on big rocks for Him. When I left home and was on my own I went to church I played the auto harp sang and went many places. Then my attention got off of my purpose and on to what was going on that was not right in the church. Big mistake. Isn’t that just like the devil to feed you just enough thoughts to cause you to doubt. Just like he did Eve in the garden. Not being a fully mature Christian I took the bait and then came the big down fall. I thought I could just do it on my own that I didn’t need church I had the Bible as my guide. Instead of keeping my eyes on the point man Jesus Christ I let the little things wrong going on around me in the church cloud my judgement. Solomon 2: 15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. That’s the way the devil works. Just enough to start doubt. So when I thought I knew it all and stopped going to church I was on my own and it was not long before little by little I fell spiritually flat on my little know it all face. Mark 4: 19 And the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and the lust of other things entering in choke the word and it becometh unfruitful. There”s me and still thinking I knew it all, the devil had me right in the palm of his hand. As I found out the devil does not care who you are, he is only interested in the percentages. Now going back to my ranting. For troughs that say they are true believers that believe that God will tell you things this is what happened. My ranting stopped when these words came to me clear as a bell. ” You are the biggest hypocrite of them all. You took your eyes off of me and became consumed with the problems instead of being the solution. How do you know what’s in the heart of man or who I choose to do my will when I want on my time? How do you know these you persecute that go to church that at some given moment they may hear My Word preached that might wake them up and pierce their heart and bring them to repentance? You don’t know what they are struggling with, there battles, a heart that’s broken that’s not seen on the out side or hear their their prayers in the dark of the night ? I am the potter. Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto Him who strives with Him who formed him,a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, What are you making? or Your work has no handles? Look at what you have become, you that think you know it all. If you don’t like what you see in the church don’t do it, you’re there to learn also what not to do in church and in the world. What do you miss from going to Church?”( I started to cry, I could not dispute what was said to me. It was my wake up call.) He said again” If you will not be used to be a part of the solution then the devil will use you to add to the problem in the world and in Church.” ( my eyes was opened to what I allowed to happen and I am going to church, and the one I go to preaches the Word of God and about problems and changes that need to be made with in ourselves. I go to worship the Lord, not to get side tracked into any thing that’s politics. The Pastor can not make everybody be and do what they should as true believers nor can anyone else it’s not mine or anyone else’s job and blaming the Church for the reason for not going because of some of the peoples attitudes, or what any one thinks of the people in you own mind is not any ones job. We are there to worship God and to let God use us as (the true believers we say we are) to reach out to a sick and dying world and be part of God’s plan of the solution, to repent of sins, receive Jesus Christ , clean up their lives and show a lost world the Bible is God’s Word has stood the anvils of time that speaks God’s will for mankind , that clearly says what God excepts and what pleases Him and He despises and will not accept, instead of letting the devil worm his thoughts and lies into our minds until we become more of the problem as that’s his goal and purpose. Now the devil greatest triumph to divide the church, has been going on for a long time and growing. God loved me so much He saw my potential and was using me but I let my guard down and started attacking the church the devils playground. Those that criticize the churches and try to do it on your own starting little groups that want to gather together with the same attitude, to read the Bible, pray these groups are still forming something organized for those that label churches organized religion. God showed me in His word this was going to happen the seed of doubt to destroy what God gave us that people have fought and gave their lives to preserve. The devils lie intent first to divide the church labeling it and organized religion and then saying it’s not biblical, then saying the Bible has been rewritten so many times you can’t believe any of it, one lie after another. But people are still getting saved and returning to church. Glory to God, God sees all things and as broken and pathetic as we are as were the disciples that Jesus worked with, God will use us, clean us up, for His will on earth as it is in heaven. I live to please God and if I don’t He lets me know. Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

      • Richard Paulson on September 25, 2019 at 3:21 am

        Hello Autumn Moon.

        Thank you for your heart to reach out. I endeavour to do what I can in reaching out to others. God however has to be the one to open doors and change circumstances. God has to be the one to lead. I am not giving up. But what you call the church is not the church unless it is willing to fellowship in the truth. Just attending a man made building is not going to church. If I am not finding the fellowship, then it is because people are not really Christian, but just religious. Many years ago I was under religious bondage for listening to the false ministers and churches false teaching. I am no longer under that religious bondage because I found the truth of the gospel for myself. Someone here falsely accused me of have a religious spirit, which I do not have. It is in fact that I have been freed from religious bondage and I see the truth clearly, that makes me a target of false accusations. Remember even Noah could not find anyone in the world that was following God. We are living in days like that.

      • Richard Paulson on October 7, 2019 at 8:13 pm

        Hello Autumn Moon,

        Recently God showed me that for me personally, it is his will for me to go to these organized churches where I can. I missed it last year because I altogether stopped going. But I have started going again. It isn’t because I join any of them. But God showed me that this is God’s will for me personally. So I cannot fulfill the will of God for my life if I avoid these places. It is indeed a mission field. God humbles himself also to come alongside his people for their good. God has shown me that even though the truth is not preached properly and even though they don’t do things God’s way, and even though no one has fellowship with me, I am still to go. Otherwise I will not be doing the will of God. As soon as I saw this I went to one such church the next day. I remembered the things God showed me in the past and realized how I missed it in this respect. I actually saw no point in going, but I didn’t realize the importance of my going, thinking I had to only wait for some “open door”. I am sure that I won’t make that mistake again. I believe there will be open doors for me to work. But my just being there is still bringing God with me. Even just my being there is doing the will of God.

        If you read this it would be nice to hear from you again. God bless.

      • Jacqueline on November 5, 2019 at 8:23 am

        Autumn Moon, i am one of those going from church to church trying to find one that teaches scripture and is not all messed up.

        Your testimony hit me so hard I had to walk away from reading it for a few minutes. It is so much like me.
        I was so convicted during the middle of it I literally had to distract myself to absorb who I have been being. Pretty near all of the churches I have spent time in have said they were sorry I was leaving. One said, don’t go we need you, and I went anyway.

        Dear sister I am so saddened that I too have been part of the problem and have walked away from God using me and yes, me also learning. I will mention that the scriptures warn us to ‘mark and avoid false teachers’ so this is why I left all the churches. I have now found one that teaches scripture verse by verse, book by book, and wants to be open to correction by the Lord. This church has been shrinking, it is mainly older people and it is not in my neighbourhood, so fellowship is not there. I thank you for relaying your testimony. Love in Christ. Jacqueline.

    • Tammy on September 15, 2019 at 11:33 pm

      You are right, Carey. The people are the church. God is wanting to bring us back to assembling just like the people did in the Book of Acts. (Acts 1:14) You need that no one should teach you. The Holy Spirit is your teacher. (1John 2:27) We don’t need to lift up a preacher of Pastor and follow him. We follow Jesus only. We don’t need to give them money to buy airplanes, a new 2nd car for the wife, a bigger house, and live a high life while we are laboring to make ends meet. We can help the poor on the streets, the stranger, the fatherless, the widows, the orphans, (Deuteronomy 24:19). You can look for House Churches or Home Churches in your area. They are also called “Organic Churches. I have been attending an assembly for a year now. We are learning the true Word of God. We are learning the Seven Feasts of the Bible and celebrating them. We are learning how important the 4th Commandment is: Honor the Sabbath. You will find one in your community. I will pray for you.

    • Jacqueline on November 5, 2019 at 7:41 am

      Robert, I totally relate to what you say. It is my belief that unless persecution comes we will never find believers who want to truly worship God in Spirit and truth.

    • Amy Porter, a learning growing struggling disciple of Christ on November 23, 2019 at 10:26 am

      Good morning! 😊 I wake up and drive my children to their early morning seminary class each day before they head to school. The other families in my ward and church do the same. The teacher holds the “class” in their own home and is “called to serve” in this capacity. Many different members are asked to volunteer their time to do this. Not paid clergy, not religious students, just normal ordinary people with ordinary homes and ordinary jobs. They study together helping each to participate. Still, it is up to every individual to gain and strengthen their own testimony of our savior Jesus Christ, and as such, most of our members take their own personal time to dedicate to their own study and worship each day, just as you do. 😊

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 2:42 pm

      Robert, that’s what you should do, until you find some. If not, go to all the churches again and mark out in your own mind just what is acceptable in the practical climate, not transgressing God in your heart. By faith, be able to huddle together with some evil around, and be bravely Christ’s light there, too. The World is a cinch compared with real, living beings behaving badly.. So, love them! Praise Jesus. And you’ll start seeing them around. You’re welcome to read my site, but you need people around you, not relying on the society’s allowances of Internet and ..electricity. So, lighten up in Christ’s hilarious, wondrous, multilayered reality, not fearing the images from the world that look close to good things you’re seeing from God, and ..continue in Christ, waiting well, brother. Sing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs in your heart making melody to JHWH and His Son YHSHWH! And ignore forms over meaning.

    • Dora on December 29, 2019 at 11:39 pm

      Hi Robert
      My name is Dora and I was feeling like you. Try C3 Church, they have connect group, prayers group many that you can choose from. I hope is help, the church it will help you to develop knowledge of the Gospel and engage with others. However, the
      relationship within you and God is personal and is all up to you.
      I hope this helped you
      God bless you
      Dora

  25. JGHEMLOCKGREENWOODTREE on August 27, 2019 at 9:45 am

    The true church of God doesn’t belong to any organized religion. They most certainly don’t belong to any of the zillion different denominations, since there is only ONE body and ONE head, which is Christ Jesus. The members of the true church of Philadelphia are scattered and they are not sitting in any building called ‘Church,’ especially those churches that allows pagan worship inside God’s house–not a chance!

    The churches of today are not anything but a corporate money making machine. They invest money in big screen televisions, coffee, beer and snack vendors, selling their CD’s in their overpriced book shops and stores. As they fill their pockets and their seats of their church, the communities around them are poor, fatherless, homeless, physically ill, drug and alcohol addicted and dying. The pastors live in million dollar homes, with another beach house for recreation, private airplanes etc… while their community is wasting away. It’s a joke to even see the hundreds of different churches whose beliefs are all different, teaching utter lies, and they compete with each other for cold hard cash, instead of working together as one body to help their communities. Jesus would never approve and He doesn’t. If He was here today, he would have 98% of these building’s tables flipped over, and he’d a whipped the majority of these fake pastors running the dog and pony show. Wait till they see what is coming to them if they don’t change.

    The Kingdom of God is within us, and he taught LOVE. He warned us that in the ‘ End-Times’ that the majority of churches would be despicable, and they really are. None of them are the Church of Philadelphia–NOT a chance! I will never feel guilty for not going into a church that is set up for destruction. Yeah! Destruction! Who dares to call the Most High God a house of worship and then drags in pagan Xmas trees, blood ritual sacrifices of the pagan god Ishtar, Pan, Horus, The Babylonian gods, Tamarez, Saturnalia and literally encourages God’s people to perform abomination after abomination against Him? It’s quite sickening to watch. We even have the Catholics watching the pope putting viles of blood and human bone of humans on god’s alters, and telling people he can command Jesus off His mercy seat. That ain’t Jesus–that’s the Devil. The mesmerized sheep don’t bat an eye.

    This article is written by someone who doesn’t really know the Most High God. If they did, they surely wouldn’t be promoting what The Great I Am Himself is going to smash down in His righteous anger! They are against Him and not for Him. They should never make anyone feel guilty for not desiring to enter into a building that will be no more in the near future. I wouldn’t be caught dead in any of these garbage places full of statues, pagan worship, and deception. The key word here is ‘dead.’ I am sure there must be a few PURE sanctified and purified houses of God out there… I sure hope so. After traveling throughout the United States… Haven’t seen one yet.

    We are told to worship Him in spirit and in truth. I would hardly say that any of the churches that I have seen are worshiping Elohim in spirit and in truth. Thanks but no thanks. Free Agents of the Most High are out there, but they will be the ones to rise up after the judgements pour down upon the earth. The fake pastors of these fake churches won’t be found on earth any longer. Their churches will be whisked away in the whirlwind. Anybody following them, supporting them, bowing to them and their pagan idolatry won’t be around either. The Great I Am is a loving, long suffering God, but He is going to allow the Devil to claim what is his very soon. The true people of God will see with their eyes the punishment of the wicked. but it will not come near them. Judgement begins in the House of the Lord….so it will begin there and rightfully so. God is not just love but a God of JUSTICE, JUDGEMENT AND WRATH. These buildings will feel the wrath when the whirlwinds come!

    When people really begin to believe in God and begin to have a great fear of God, they will no longer enter into these pagan places. They themselves will know what is going to happen if they dare participate in idolatry, while serving other gods. Nobody can sit at the table with Jesus and participate in the deeds of darkness with demons! The Devil is in most of these churches! Don’t be shocked if you get caught in the judgment because of it. These churches down here are deadly to a person’s spirit! Wake up people! God is real and He ain’t playing, especially with those who slap the name of Elohim on a house that honors Satan.

    I pray that people wake up and see what they are actually doing before it’s too late. God takes these things very serious…. even if the majority of church members and wolf pastors don’t. Expect the judgements to begin shortly….You can’t say that you weren’t warned. It’s definitely the end-times! Don’t let the Devil dupe you!

    • Autumn Moon on September 3, 2019 at 1:07 pm

      Thank you. I see this. So e are to take God s word out to a sick and dieing world. That’s my mission. But what I am experiencing people are so turned off because their experiences in church. They just walk away. It’s so sad. God help us to continue trying to reach.them.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:03 pm

        That’s it, Autumn Moon – change yourself, prayerfully and with faith, and the world will see, wonder, be drawn ..to He Who Is our Life.

    • Tammy on September 16, 2019 at 12:27 am

      JGHEMLOCKGREENWOODTREE: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! THANK YOU FOR YOUR BOLDNESS IN POSTING THIS! I LEFT THE “CHURCH’ BECAUSE OF THE CELEBRATION IN THE CHURCH ON HALLOWEEN. THEY WERE CALLING IT “HARVEST FESTIVAL”, BUT THE PASTOR ALLOWED THEM TO DRESS IN HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, WHATEVER THEY WANTED. ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN DRESSED AS A WOMAN. I COULD FEEL THE SPIRIT OF CONFUSION ENTER THE CHURCH BUILDING. THEY TOLD THE PEOPLE TO DRESS HOWEVER THEY WANTED TO, JUST DON’T BRING GUNS!!!! THEY GAVE OUT STARBUCK’S GIFT CARDS TO ALL THE NEW MEMBERS. I MENTIONED TO THEM THAT STARBUCKS LOGO WAS REPRESENTING THE MERMAID “SIREN”, WHO LURED SAILORS TO THEIR DEATH BY PUTTING LUST IN THEIR HEARTS. THEY MENTIONED THAT THEY WOULD LOOK INTO IT, BUT JUST IGNORED IT. THEY LIFTED UP BOOKS AND TEACHINGS BY RICK WARREN AND PRAISED BOOKS THAT HAD CATHOLIC INUENDOS. I BROUGHT THIS TO THEIR ATTENTION, BUT WAS ONLY IGNORED. IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO LEAVE THE “CHURCH” BECAUSE I HAD BUILT UP A GOOD REPUTATION. EVERYONE KNEW MY NAME. I WAS A GREETER. I WAS A MEMBER OF THE WOMEN’S PRAYER GROUP, A LEADER IN SPECIAL TEACHING CLASSES THEY HAD, ALL LEADING ME TO PRIDE IN MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS. FINALLY, THE LORD SPOKE TO MY HEART TO GET OUT. HE WANTED TO SEPARATE ME FROM THIS. THE PEOPLE FROM THE CHURCH THOUGHT THAT I WAS CRAZY. THEY COULDN’T UNDERSTAND WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO ME. I NOW ATTEND A WEEKLY SHABBAT SERVICE WITH FELLOW BELIEVERS IN CHRIST. WE CELEBRATE THE SEVEN BIBLE FEASTS. WE HONOR ALL THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, ESPECIALLY “HONOR THE SABBATH”.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:06 pm

        That’s an encouraging move, Tammy. I’m sure your new fellow Christians are glad whenever another Christian joins them — the world sure is wicked.. Anyhow, just make sure they preach all of Christ! Shalom.

    • Richard Paulson on September 25, 2019 at 6:10 am

      JGHEMLOCKGREENWOODTREE, You made very good comments, most of which I appreciate, however, just a couple of things I wanted to mention. I believe in the Authorized Bible (King James), and I believe it would please the Lord for you to know that all of its words are perfectly true. (I am not saying that you may not already see it as the perfect translation.) However, the word Elohim is not found therein. God is pleased for us to exalt the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we need not look to any other said names for the true God other than what is in the Scripture. If God wanted us to use the name “Elohim”, it would appear in the King James Bible for us. Also, what do you think if someone visits one of these organized churches in the way of seeking fellowship or to reach out to others but not to join with organizations or support them?Because there may be lost sheep that are there. Also I have known in times past God’s presence with others in such places, although the religious leaders are holding them in bondage. Do you think a person could visit them without participating in the evil? Or do you think it is too dangerous to make that attempt?

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:10 pm

        I think it’s far too dangerous, Richard Paulson, for someone who has said what you have said about the KJV to go that many steps away from your own burden. Work out what you have already in your own conscience first ..completely. Then you will have a sort of clarity. Then you will go in all the nooks and crannies that God knows He has for you! It’s fun to *really* trust Him!

        • Richard Paulson on June 24, 2020 at 1:13 pm

          Jeremy, I do have things clear to me, and I have a good conscience. God has shown me to go until I get thrown out or rejected or treated with such dishonour that shows that they are rejecting God or dishonouring God. God had me going to 3 places not long ago until I was rejected or dishonoured or not welcomed anymore in those places. This is typical. It’s not that I am afraid of any danger to myself from these said or so-called “Christian” churches. Currently, I am not going anywhere, but not because I simply decided to leave, but because there is no place for me to go at present, yet again. It is because I am thrown out or rejected or dishonoured. It’s only when God says, “don’t go”, that I don’t go. This is what I have learned is God’s way.

  26. Donte on August 13, 2019 at 9:53 am

    Using the New Testament (specifically the writings of Paul) as the prime reason we should go to church is circular logic. It’s based on an assumption that the New Testament is 100%, guaranteed God’s words. I have come to a point in my life where I am questioning that. I used to make fun of red-letter Christians. Now I know I’m one of them. Whatever Jesus said is good enough for me. Anyone who says the words of Jesus isn’t enough should probably repeat that to themselves slowly. Jesus is God, and if the only thing I do is live life according to his message, that is sufficient for me. Jesus never said, “gather together once or twice a week to fellowship and study scripture.” Jesus kept it simple: Love God, love one another. Why do we complicated that with “Yeah that, but you gotta go to church too.” Churches need us to go to keep the lights on and the pastor’s mortgage paid. That may seem overly simplistic, but if they really followed Paul’s message, they would pay attention to how he worked wherever he went to take care of his needs and the needs of those traveling with him. Pastors today expect to be paid a living salary to be in ministry. That’s not Biblical, even by their own New Testament standards. Let them work full-time jobs, take nothing more than an honorarium from the fellowship they serve, and then I’ll consider going back. But that won’t happen. The church mortgage, the pastor and assistant pastors’ salaries, the secretary’s pay – all of it requires butts in seats; so the “it’s Biblical to go to church” rings very hollow. The original believers gathered in each other’s houses and poured into one another through relationships founded on LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER. Let’s get back to that.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:16 pm

      Interpreting Paul – that righteous Apostle to the Gentiles – and interpreting Peter is not as big a deal as knowing that Jesus’ earthly ministry was TO JEWS under THE LAW. Understand, dear one; accept with belief, even though your flesh rebels! Accept it!! You’ve got people so fiercely holding onto the concept the *some* English translation is *perfect*, which is wrong by easy proof in God’s actual Universe, but they know it’s something to hold on to for a reason, which is that, certainly in the more general sense, He has not allowed us to be lied to in His name. *That’s* a matter of honorable trust in Him – not in Cephas or Teutullian or Jerome or Apollos or Paul — or of Jesus during His earthly ministry. The shock comes from preprogramming more than honest calculation now. ..doesn’t it?

  27. alex on July 19, 2019 at 11:22 pm

    From someone living outside the USA I see many of these comments as a reflection of the shallowness many in the world see embedded in your culture that has infected all layers of “church”
    Leaders who want total control. Followers who want it their way and all their needs met. Why waste all this hate energy debating, justifying, criticizing. Maybe your divisive culture is the real problem

  28. LD on July 19, 2019 at 7:52 pm

    Yes, definitely! Let’s get rid of most of what is falsely called “The New Testament” that you say replaces the teaching of JESUS CHRIST!! That’s the problem right there. “Church people” have apostatized from the teaching of Jesus Christ to follow this “Paul” character: who generated a whole different religion of institutionalism, male domination and female subjugation, State worship, authority and submission… a whole religious system that is completely opposite EVERYTHING Jesus Christ taught.

    Jesus taught about love and equality. Jesus taught that everything was about being born-again; loving God with all our hearts, minds, souls, and strengths; and loving others as ourselves. Jesus didn’t preach the hate and the sexism that Paul preached – not the statism – not the institutionalism – no nothing that Paul preached did Jesus Christ teach and preach.

    So, who is the Messiah? Well, Jesus is the Messiah if you are truly saved.

    But, if you want another religion of dead empty institutionalism of man worship and the degradation of women: Paul is your Messiah. You don’t even have to be born again to follow Paul!! Because Paul was not born again himself either in his stories. His wild over the top exaggerations about how many times he was whipped and shipwrecked and all that: in the gnostic books of Luke/Acts and “epistles of Paul”.

    And, just “who is” this “Paul”? A character made up by Marcion: a rapist and Luciferian who generated “The Antithesis” of the “epistles of Paul” and “Luke/Acts” telling us that “Paul” was the only true apostle because Paul preached a Jesus who was actually Lucifer.

    No, I am just “not into” the Luciferian gnostic false epistles of “Paul”. Why would I be?

    The teachings of Jesus mean everything to me.

    • Tom (from Germany) on July 30, 2019 at 6:00 am

      I can hardly believe it that there are Christians in the U.S. who claim that Paul’s letters to the Churches are not scripture. At this point I’m stepping out of the discussion. It is foundation and base of all further discussion that the Bible as we know it is Holy Scripture and inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself. There is definitely no such thing as “political correctness” as we know it today in the Bible. The Bible is call to repentance and turning around from all the sinful ways by surrendering to Jesus Christ and following Him alone.

    • Spiritual Hammer on August 27, 2019 at 9:33 am

      Finally someone who gets it! Marcion was the very first “Christian” to start compiling epistles and only one gospel into a canon of Scripture for Christians to read and live by. Absolutely true. Otherwise we would have not had a New Testament. Now we know why Paul and Christ disagree so much in the writings, and Paul seems to know very little about Jesus’ actual life in his letters. Excellent post!

    • Asher on November 18, 2019 at 3:31 pm

      LD, the teachings of Jesus mean nothing to you. If they did, then you would not subtract from the words of the Bible according your finite understanding and therefore store up wrath for yourself. You rantings about Paul mean nothing. Paul’s and Jesus’s teachings do not conflict nor do Paul’s James’s (Jesus’s brother’s) teachings conflict. But there is conflict in you– whether you’re consciously attempting to deceive the people of God or you are ‘taken with a spirit’ and are under the delusion of that spirit– if you think there is conflict between any two books, chapters, or verses in the Bible. You don’t have the Holy Spirit; you’ve been too easily deceived. May God have mercy on you, to turn you from pride and open your eyes– like He did Nebuchadnezzar– to recognize that God is the Most High and that His wisdom to organize and lead the writing and putting together of the Bible is far above your ability to dictate or choose what is right and what is wrong.

      By your own words, I can perceive that you are not even in the preschool of the Spirit yet. You have not been led into the classroom. You are still snuggled against your mother’s bosom and have never heard any ‘teachings’; yet, “the teachings of Jesus mean everything” to you. Repent. When you put your wisdom above God’s and start challenging words that are not in ‘red letters’ (when even words in red letters seems to contradict each other), then you are following ‘another jesus’. You have been deceived. Repent. Turn away from complex religion and turn to God’s simple religion, “pure and undefiled before God”, in that you stick to what you clearly understand (e.g. eat, work, treat others with the same regard you have for yourself, etc.) and let God reveal to you what you are not clear about. God help you and those who are being pulled into the anti-Paul error.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:23 pm

      Paul made such a work for Christ, his enemies on the human plane are *still* reeling from greater-granddad’s defeats at that honest man’s words. Paul was tested for truth by his own peers at the time – you just don’t like what Christ has revealed through not Muhammad, not Joseph Jr., but through God’s people, not the Pope, but God’s people, even today. There is ONE SPIRIT in Christianity THROUGH TIME. You’re welcome. No need to send me $40, even as a tiny token of the value you put on this most excellent answer to your off-the-top exaggeration. Just look at Jesus – not at Paul – but don’t deny Jesus’ THINGS just because you know Paul said them in the Bible God did not lie to us with. It’s a matter of honorable faith in what God is doing with YOU as with us all.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:25 pm

        Only confess Master Jesus verbally and believe heartily that God resurrected Him. Be saved, and start looking up, waiting (which is all we’re doing now, anyhow). Love more than *you* can, else you have not measured up to the law Christ preached in the 4 gospels (until the ends of each, of course, when the actions by Christ referenced in Paul’s gospel happened).

  29. PJ on May 21, 2019 at 12:50 am

    My problem is not with the Church. I am quite aware that the Church and gathering is biblical. My problem is with organized religion pretending to be the Church! My problem is organized religion trying to pass as the Body of Christ! I have experienced God in ways that I have never imagined when I walked away from organized religion. I have experienced the grace and love of God in ways that I’ve never experienced in all my church life, which is from birth. The “church” was actually blocking and preventing me from seeing Christ. There is church, with all its grand business model organization and buildings and whatever. Then there is the Body of Christ that is the genuine Church…the real called out ones, whose soul focus is on Christ. I’ll take Christ over “church” anytime!

    • Jim T. on May 21, 2019 at 9:46 am

      Well put PJ !
      It is a true blessing to read something deep and meaningful from your heart. I was beginning to tire over the debating and arguing by those who are professing to be Christians but do not realize they are ensnared in religion. As for professed atheists…they are nothing more than attention seekers. There is no need to attack – counter attack. Simply share the light of truth from your heart that the Holy Spirit has illuminated for you…as you have graciously done. Thanks again. Peace!

    • Rolf Thielen on July 1, 2019 at 3:15 am

      Amen PJ!

    • Tom (from Germany) on July 7, 2019 at 5:52 am

      The reason why I left church is the low spiritual waters from which pastors drink. Besides nowadays you must be something in order go get on. Wealth, prestige, houses, cars and expensive designer clothes are important to get acknowledged. The wealthy sit in the first row, the not so wealthy at the back, that’s exactly the opposite to what James wrote. Singers in the choir are top professionels with extraordinarily worked out voices. Everything must shine like gold. The normal man, often unemployed, can’t afford church any longer. The church today has become a place of expensively paid services. Instead of praying together thex talk together. Prayer, the center of Christianity, has been replaced almost completely by counseling and talking.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:30 pm

        Hang in there, believing our same Master and Savior Jesus The Messiah and only Natural Son of God Whom He sent to Earth in the body to die for us on the cross. Then He was buried, then He arose from death. His servants who wait for Him will do likewise, with gusto! Praise Him now and forever! And hang in there – ask Him to show you some of us, in faith that He is both able and – because you are not sinfully hating Him, you know you asked rightly – willing to do this large feat for you.. and praise Him, always.

    • Craig on July 7, 2019 at 12:02 pm

      Amen Brother and Sister
      We are all and I mean all under orders from Jesus to, “Go Ye Therefore And Teach All Nations Baptizing Them In The Name Of The Father, Son And Holy Spirit”!
      Since leaving organized religion I have shared Gods word and baptized folks who would never set foot in a church. Organized religion wants to elevate church leadership to an exalted position!
      I have news for all: Christ’s message is simple and does not take a higher education to pass along to folks! God made it simple!
      And easy for all to understand!
      Jesus loves you and Jesus loves me with all our flaws!

    • Asher on November 18, 2019 at 3:57 pm

      PJ, well said. christians today have done far more to hinder me from a relationship with God than any atheist, satanist, or crazy person could ever have achieved. 99% of the time when I talk to a christian, the good and godly things in me drain out or get sucked out: faith, hope, love, peace, joy, clarity of vision, etc. What Jesus said to the ministers of His day (teachers of the Law, Pharisees) is true of today’s ministers and christians: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to” (Matthew 23:13). christians who do not have and do not want a relationship with God (‘entering the Kingdom’) will always hinder anyone else who wants that relationship. It’s amazing to see through continual experience that Jesus’s words and ALL the words in the Bible are 100% true.

      People want you to ‘go to church’. If they had been taught by the Holy Spirit and by genuine shepherds of God, they would have understood that when the Bible says to ‘go to church’, it is talking to a specific group of people and not to everyone who darkens the doorway of a religious building. The Bible is talking to genuine believers when it commands them to gather together. Here is the passage in its entirety which sheds light on the fact that this is not what church buildings on the weekends are observing:

      “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Hebrews 10:22-25).

      People who attend church buildings surely aren’t thinking of sanctification and “hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience”. They aren’t holding fast to any genuine faith. And for sure they are not considering (thinking of) one another at all. Only genuine believers observe the faith (“hearts sprinkled”), remain faithful (“hold fast the confession”), love the brethren in practice (“consider one another”), honor every member and not just some (“the assembling of ourselves together”). “The manner of some” who don’t assemble is not talking about those who don’t go to a church building but about those who don’t assemble in genuine fellowship. That Hebrews passage is talking only talking to genuine believers and about genuine fellowship. It is not addressing everyone who has ‘joined a religion’ and observes religions get-togethers.

      I became a christian in 1986 at an altar at the age of 7. I became a believer in 1998 on an Amtrak train when God suddenly showed up at the age of 18. ‘Church’ from 1998 suddenly looked the way it actually is: dead, dead, dead. They don’t want the Lord because you can’t have a program and have the Lord at the same time, and since churchgoers serve the clock (schedules, etc.) more than the Lord, they must have a program. Even if they truly desire the Lord, their program which they stick to (their timetable) will always push the Lord out. When Jesus first began to lead me away from ‘church’ in 2000, I began to have an actual relationship with Him– to take His yoke upon me and learn of Him, to live and breathe and gain insight and spiritual nutrition. In the past, Jesus was not found in Jerusalem, the religious capital of the world, but among the common people. Likewise today, He is not found in churches but outside of them where the humble (not the prideful who think they are saved) gather together.

      • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:38 pm

        Sometimes, our physical neighbors *are* Christians who just don’t go to church. Praise Jesus, together with all you find, please.

  30. son on May 19, 2019 at 6:18 pm

    Here we go again, voice in the wilderness. Anybody here planning to vote for Pete Buttigieg? “God made him a homosexual,” he claims, Is that ok, then, according to God? Does anyone out there think than homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexuals? Or, is it a genetic predisposition? Isn’t it funny how animals don’t practice homosexuality, except for the marsupial lesbian beast named the “Lickalotapus?” Tongue-in-cheek, of course. Well, the Catholic Church didn’t take too kindly to Martin Luther, anymore than it does to Pete Buttigieg trying to make homosexuality appear to be in accordance with The Will of God. Thoughts, folks? What a mess this world has become. Maranatha, Jesus. Come soon, Lord. We need you to make straight your path..

    • son on May 19, 2019 at 6:38 pm

      From the fwiw dept. Best prayer you can make, in general.
      Sharing:
      “I know my life is in your hands, Lord. I know that I shall live in accordance with The Holy Will of God. Thank you for giving me peace with those divine words of holy inspiration in Your Holy Spirit, Jesus.”

  31. HoosierConservative on May 16, 2019 at 7:49 am

    How will these churches stand strong during end-times persecution if they can’t even handle a drop in attendance? How will they hold to their convictions in the future when they’re changing their strategy now every time the revenue drops? The more that North America becomes a post-Christian society, the more radical the church ought to look. Instead we have what amounts to a post-Christian church system. These pastors talk more about Hollywood culture and pop psychology than they talk about the Bible.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:45 pm

      Go a step further, HoosierConservative, and apply the rule again. We don’t have a vibrant, reacting, vigorous core on the surface – in the discussion here much at all. God is faithful, though, to keep His own. Find us, as God wills it, in Jesus’ authoritative name.

  32. Bruce A. Baxter on May 14, 2019 at 5:23 pm

    Are you sure today’s church is Biblical? Church may be a Biblical concept (Church simply means gathering, not an organized religious corporation) but in order for a Church to be as the Bible describes it needs to follow Biblical rules. Does the Church of today do that? NO I DOESN’T. Maybe the independent mom and pop church here and there – but the major factions, who are so corrupt that they have formed commissions who say who is and isn’t “admitted” are NOT.

    The Church organization is engaging in racial separation. Does God approve of that? It makes idols out of it’s leaders and makes them filthy rich, while there are homeless Christians forking over tithes – is THAT the Church of the Bible? pandering to politicians, governments and the ways of the world – afraid to stand up against whatever the world is pushing this time… id THAT God’s plan for Church? Afraid of prosecution, of wealth being taken away – where is the Church as the world falls into deeper and deeper sin? Silent. Is that the Bible church? NO.

    Looking the other way while the Church leaders are engaging in pimpery, adultery, homosexuality, child abuse? Is that the Church we are supposed to go to anyway? Is that what God intended? I don’t think so.

    You can advocate for people going to Church, and point out that we should according to the Bible – but don’t sit there and ignore that the Church of the Bible is not what we have today. And since it does not exist, then don’t deceive people, or try to shame them into not attending the Church of Satan – which is what it is now. The tares have choked out the wheat. The Church is not a building, and people seeking God should not be expected to “fix” this broken Church when they are still in the infancy of their Christianity. That is the job of the Church leadership – to give people a holy place that is practicing as the Bible commands – ON DAY ONE.

    You will have an argument when the Church starts following the Bible. But as of now, everything you say does not apply to the real world, and people who do not go to Church because the Church is corrupt have a perfectly legitimate reason not to go there. It isn’t healthy for our souls and not what God wants us to do. THAT, is following the Bible, not going out of hollow “devotion”.

    • robo421 on May 14, 2019 at 5:49 pm

      Bruce, I could not have said it any better than what you conveyed. I fully agree with you and yes, it is racially devided.

    • fessdo on May 14, 2019 at 6:25 pm

      Bruce,
      You’re beginning to get to it, just stay in the word and keep your eyes on Jesus not the CHURCH. Prospering pastors will not tell you about JESUS,,,, who can free you from the losing end. If you’re lacking in this world you need Jesus who HAS fulfilled that.

    • Asher on November 18, 2019 at 7:39 pm

      Bruce, well said. The church of today is not the Church that the Bible commands us to attend. This author is part of the luciferian agenda to subvert devotion to God and to either persecute and destroy or draw back into the apostate church system those who have actually escaped its corruption. If he continues in that path, he will face his judgment before God alone. No luciferian will cheer his ill-advised audacity; no christian will speak for him; no fallen angel will take up his cause; and Jesus, who is THE Advocate, will not defend him. He will be alone when he faces God, and he will eat his words and his stubborn insistence to live for himself while pretending to live for God. As Jesus said, “many” will hear on that Day, “I never knew you.” The Lake of Fire is not a place for God-haters to congregate and relate and party; it is a place where God-haters will rue the day they were born and will weep and wail and gnash their teeth, unable to find mercy from God and many of them still unwilling to ask for it.

      Cheers also to you Fessdo, Son, and Richard Paulson.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:48 pm

      Church is *not* as it should, yet we must still gather *today*. What are *you* going to do, dear sibling in our same Master and Savior Jesus Christ? Let me relieve your soul in delights concerning Him for a small time, then go back, faithfully waiting. ..together if *you* can. :^D He loves you, and, because He has shown me His own love, deeply, I do, too. Bye for now..

  33. Richard Paulson on May 12, 2019 at 3:50 am

    I myself don’t reject any Christian fellowship, which is really the point. But if the said churches are not Christian then they won’t really fellowship with me on the basis that I am a Christian. It doesn’t matter that they say they are Christians. They are not, because it is they which will not be in fellowship with a genuine Christian. The problem is where can I find a genuine Christian to fellowship with? The ritualistic visitations to man made buildings is not church. The church is a body that lives together daily in fellowship. So Sunday meetings only, or gathering at only certain times of the week at certain allocated hours is them actually saying that they are DONE with the true church of God. This is more the case even because their gatherings are not designed for fellowship or to seek God, but are for controlling the people and for making money.

    • son on May 12, 2019 at 3:49 pm

      Amen, brother, AMEN! The modern church is a BUSINESS. Make no mistake about that.
      The TRUE church is in your heart, where Jesus lives.

      • son on May 12, 2019 at 4:24 pm

        As my beloved brother Fessdo, who evidently was banned from posting on this forum, emphasized, “ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS” gets you into Heaven. Do you think going to church will get you into Heaven? Do you think good deeds will get you into Heaven? Do you think accumulating over $40 million, like the renowned pastor Joel Osteen has, will get you into Heaven? Dear brother Fessdo, I hope you are out there and reading this. ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS will get you into Heaven. Jesus completed the work of your salvation. Show Him gratitude and reverence, every minute of every day. Our existence is all about Jesus. He is the Source, the Reason, The meaning of life.

        JOHN 10:27-28
        My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
        And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

        • Richard Paulson on May 13, 2019 at 1:13 am

          Hi there “son”.

          I agree that the blood of the Lord Jesus is God’s provision for us to be able to appear before God as blameless of all sins. The blood of Jesus took away our sins before God, which means that he made them appear as white as snow and as sheep’s wool, or as innocence in God’s eyes (thus turning away God’s wrath from us), because they were done in ignorance. See Isaiah 1:18 and Numbers 15:22-36 regarding the reason for the atonement, and Luke 23:34. Jesus did not die for willful sin done in the knowledge of the truth. See also Hebrews 10:26.

          There is an awful fallacy among Christians in saying that Jesus died to “pay for sin” or that he was our “substitute”. I am called to wake up the true church of God to this lie and to see that the opposite is true, which is that Jesus Christ died to prove us innocent to God by his blood. For to have “justification” means to have “proof of innocence”. And we are “justified by his blood” (Romans 5:9). To be justified means to be “shown blameless” or “proved innocent”. Thus even though according to the law of Moses, we are guilty of sin, and therefore cannot be “justified” by it, because the law of Moses is no judge of our spirits, (for that a person can sin with his flesh and yet do so in innocence of spirit), by Jesus Christ the righteous Judge, we can be shown to be truly innocent of all sin to God. This is what Jesus Christ did for us to God, and what he still does for us as our high priest and advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2) He did not come to “condemn” us by the cross, which is what the idea of him as our substitute does. Nowhere in the Authorized King James Bible can be found the words “pay for sin” or “substitution”. The idea of Jesus Christ dying as our substitute is completely foreign to the Bible and actually denies the main point of the gospel, because that idea establishes our guilt before God. Therefore it cannot reconcile us to God. Whereas Jesus Christ “taking away” sin, means that sin is not attributed to us by the blood of Jesus Christ. This is the message of reconciliation. This is the gospel which God revealed to me after being a Christian for a number of years. There are so very many Scriptures that verify all of this, as it is as soundly Biblical as one can get.

          Yet what I just said, you are sure never to have heard from anyone else. This is because the said “church” is not the church and the preaching that is universal is opposed to this Gospel.

          Thus it is also written in John 5:28-29: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

          Here, there are only two destinies and two realities in the words of Jesus Christ. The truth is that one can ultimately only have done either good or evil, but not both good and evil, in God’s eyes. Thus it is exactly what Jesus Christ says: All those that have done good and only good in God’s eyes, because the blood of Jesus takes away their sin, shall have the resurrection of life. But all those that have done evil, and only evil in God’s eyes, because all the good they may have done has been taken away by their turning to evil works and preferring sin to righteousness, shall have the resurrection of damnation.

          This is different to what is taught by “mainstream Christianity,” but it is exactly what the Scriptures say.

          “Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.” John 1:29

          Colossians 1:21-22 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh THROUGH DEATH, to present you holy and UNBLAMEABLE and unreproveable in his sight:

          It is even literally stated here that Jesus Christ died to prove our innocence to God. For how can a person be without blame to God if he has sinned at all in the past? Not because he stops sinning, for there must be a record of all his past sins against him, UNLESS, all his past sins can be shown to be acts of innocence to God (and not true sins, because they were not willful), through Jesus Christ bearing them up to God in his body as something other than what they have appeared; namely, as righteousness to God in his offering himself up to God as our righteousness. Thus Jesus Christ turned the sin of ignorance which crucified him (the well meaning sin of the people), into the offering of perfect righteousness to God. This is the reconciliation of the world to God and the most wondrous act.

          Yet you hear the opposite of this preached everywhere in saying that we all deserve death and hell. There are no Bible verses saying that we all deserve death and hell, and that idea is certainly a denial of the good news. But the very existence of the words “justify” and “justified” and “justification” and “justifier” and “justifieth” in the Bible, already states that Jesus died to prove us innocent to God. He rose again from the dead to do the same continually as our high priest.

          How is it possible that the entire church in the whole world has missed this truth when it is plainly stated in Scripture? Because Satan is the preacher in the mouth of all the false ministers and they have filled the world with taking Scripture out of context. For example, you will hear it preached, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” and yet not said in conjunction with the following verse, which says: “Being JUSTIFIED freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:” Romans 3:23-24. And the devil who is the accuser, MOST ESPECIALLY does not want anyone to know what that plain English word “justified” really means.

          2 Corinthians 5:19 “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

          To “not impute” sin to us means to “not attribute” sin to us. It does not mean to pay for sin, but it means to say that there is no sin to be found in us. In other words, although the law of Moses says the whole world is guilty of sin, God says that there is justification for sin through Jesus Christ. God says through Jesus Christ to the world: “You have not sinned.” This is the GOOD NEWS of reconciliation. Therefore people should respond to this in being reconciled to God also in their behaviour by the free gift of the Holy Spirit. This is the true grace of God which brings salvation.

          Glory to God!

          • son on May 13, 2019 at 11:02 am

            PHILLIPIANS 4:7
            “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”



          • Jim T. on May 13, 2019 at 11:21 am

            It may simply be a misread but I detected an indication that the Blood of Christ does not cover “willful” sin. To that I ask you to consider 1John 1:7; “…but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. ” I made sure to cite the “authorized” King James Version as you seem to favor this version. I pray you continue to seek God’s truth and Ways and do so primarily from the guidance of the Holy Spirit…not a bunch of humans back in the 1600’s.



          • son on May 13, 2019 at 2:38 pm

            Also, re: your representation that “Jesus did not die for willful sin done in the knowledge of the truth.”:
            Are you saying that if you have received Jesus as your Savior that you will no longer be a sinner? Are your sins, which you will inevitably commit since “all have sinned and fallen short of The Glory of God”, unforgiven in that case? You, and I, and all, have the seed of sin within us. We cannot escape it. Jesus died to absolve us from ALL sin, past, present and future. As I once asked Carey (he did not respond to me), “Why would a pastor look at porn?” Answer: because that pastor, like all of us, is a sinner. God’s Mercy is that He forgave us. God knows we are all sinners. Be humble and thankful that God sent Jesus to forgive us.



          • fessdo on May 13, 2019 at 10:57 pm

            Richard,
            You just wrote me a 558 word comment and used the word Jesus just 4 times?



          • Richard Epler on July 30, 2019 at 1:47 am

            No one can rightly say Paul taught truth until they believe God and His words of life and about life and about what a life the pleases Him does – which is the Torah – the commandments and Instructions of God. This is what Jesus taught in Matthew, and why Jesus upheld the Law to the least of the commandments.
            Fact is that Christian Bibles are twisted and deny God and the Teachings of Jesus – they are false translations that tell lies in the name of God.

            onediscipletoanother.org

            Study the quotes of Hebrew Scripture in the NT to the Greek based translations – repleatedly they alter the word of God, the Prophets and Psalms.

            M<ak, Luke, John and Acts all testify against Matthew and the Hebrew Holy Scriptures.



          • T A Bradly on April 1, 2020 at 6:03 pm

            The Christ, Jesus would absolutely not recognize the church of today. The entire church regardless of denomination or religious persuasion has bastardize Christ’s love your neighbor concepts. The church is now more interested in producing money for it’s so called pastors, as it continues to control people’s minds by the threat of hell to intimidate the actions of the flock and to control the politics of the dat



        • fessdo on May 13, 2019 at 6:22 pm

          Richard,
          Get you a bible you can understand,,, Hebrews 10:26 Living Bible (TLB)
          26 If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior after knowing the truth of forgiveness, this sin is not covered by Christ’s death, there is no way to get rid of it.
          If you don’t know Jesus is the Savior here in this verse, then get a clue, or read it again, again, again. My friend “son” is trying to show you that Jesus is the way and the truth!!!! so stop following your religion and start following Jesus. Jesus did a great job, in fact Jesus fulfilled the law so you don’t have too. But it takes faith in that fact.

          • son on May 13, 2019 at 8:22 pm

            Fessdo, beloved brother, SO GOOD to hear from you again! Praise God that you are still here to inspire me with the wisdom He gives you! You have influenced my thinking, probably more than you know, with your faith and experienced wisdom. As I asked Carey, and he did not respond, “why would a pastor look at porn?” What did Peter and Paul and John do when they felt horny? The seed of sin is within every one of us mortal human beings and it won’t go away. That is why we all are sinners and shall continue to sin, regardless of our will or good intentions. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE WITHOUT JESUS! You are right, brother. ONLY BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS ARE WE SAVED! Works just don’t cut it with God, because we have the seed of sin within us and are helpless to resist that. JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, ONLY JESUS. Can any of you out there say you do not sin, STILL, in spite of your professed allegiance to and faith in Jesus? You, WE, are ALL sinners, brethren!
            JOHN 8:3-11
            And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.



          • son on May 13, 2019 at 8:31 pm

            Fessdo, beloved bro, if I read you right here, you are saying, in the scripture you quoted, that if one knows that Jesus is The Lord and denies that knowledge, it is The Unforgivable Sin, and I agree. THAT is the spirit of Anti-Christ, Anathema, who will be destroyed when God returns in The Power of His Glory and The Holy Word is restored to His rightful place as King of All that was, is and shall be I love you SO MUCH, wise and blessed brother Fessdo. Your wisdom has meant so much to me, I can’t begin to tell you.
            I’m SO GLAD you are back on this forum!.



          • Richard Paulson on May 13, 2019 at 10:03 pm

            I will address all of your comments by name.

            Fessdo, you are utterly clueless. It is God that you are rejecting in rejecting my words which are the true Scriptures, not me. There is only one true Bible, and I understand it and you most certainly do not understand the gospel. You are quoting not from the Bible.

            Son, I have been very clear in what I said. If anyone rejects the gospel which I just declared they are not a Christian. If anyone says that Jesus did not die to prove our innocence, after reading what I wrote, they are condemning themselves as guilty. If you say that you are a true sinner then you are saying you cannot go to heaven. There are many Scriptures that say this. For example: According to Nahum 1:2-3:
            “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.”
            Anyone who thinks that God just forgives everyone without justice, has a false “Jesus” in their thinking. That’s not the true Biblical Jesus. God only forgives what is just to forgive, and it is only just to forgive the sin of ignorance and weakness of the flesh, which is unmeaning sin, but not just to forgive willful sin.

            Jim T, I follow God in the true Bible, not a bunch of humans as you said. A person cannot just go to the Bible ‘version’ that suits him best. That is foolishness. And the verse you quoted is referring to God cleansing us from all sin in the flesh, not from willful sin. The “cleansing” is not even a literal thing. The literal blood of Jesus does not cleanse you like a soap on your body in a physical sense. This is symbolic language. You don’t even know what it means. But I cannot prove anything to anyone who does not even believe in the actual words of Scripture. But I ask you to consider, 1 John 3:8-9 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

            Do not any of you pretend that they can explain these Scriptures away as if it is not saying what it is saying, or try to tell me it isn’t the real Scripture. If anyone is really a sinner, and cannot be proven righteous indeed, you can fully expect to go to hell. If you think you can sin willfully and get away with it and do that sin, then you are going to go to hell. You are reprobates if you believe so evilly, after what I declared clearly as the truth. According to Joshua 24:19 “And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.”



          • fessdo on May 13, 2019 at 10:37 pm

            Dave,
            Good to see you’re hanging in their being a inspiration to those who need Jesus. Whether their name be Greg or Richard Paulson the same religious spirit is controlling them, and Jesus ISN’T the Lord and master of their life, so let’s have a bit of pity on them. Dave it’s all about Jesus and not about us. Peace my friend.



          • fessdo on May 13, 2019 at 11:33 pm

            Richard,
            Let me help you here,Hebrews 10:26 Living Bible If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior, If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior, If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior,,, by rejecting the Savior,,, by rejecting JESUS after knowing the truth of forgiveness. Get it my friend, it’s so simple even a cave man can get it? It’s JESUS not RICHARD that’s the answer.



          • son on May 14, 2019 at 8:38 am

            You know, fessdo, some of the people who post here are so concerned with impressing others with their theological brilliance, they ignore the fact that many of Jesus’ followers, such as myself, don’t need to be Emmanuel Kant or Rene Descartes to love Jesus, worship Him and trust Him for our salvation. As you have emphasized, it’s really just not that complicated. Let me reiterate here:
            JOHN 3:16
            “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
            That’s it. God decreed it and I believe it
            However, if it helps others to delve into every last little nuance of the scriptures, fine, let them indulge themselves. I would only advise that they beware lest they become a stumbling block for another believer with their insistence that they know better than anyone else. Come to think of it, that is EXACTLY the reason I avoid organized church attendance now. There are those who would impose their will and their personal thinking on others, both on this forum and also at the building called a “church”.
            ;).
            Oh, and Carey, I truly appreciate you allowing me to participate on this forum. I do think you are doing the best you can, with a clear conscience, to serve God and inspire others to worship Him.

            Dave



          • son on May 14, 2019 at 8:58 am

            lol, fessdo
            “Richard,
            You just wrote me a 558 word comment”
            You COUNTED? lol!



          • fessdo on May 14, 2019 at 9:14 am

            Dave,
            If I hadn’t gotten sleepy I was going to count Richard’s “I”s and “me”s. The two things “law dogs” love to do is use the old testament and a lot of I’s and me’s in their long powerless stories. Also the thing they hate is to hear or say the name Jesus to much, guess that’s why they stay out of the new testament? The name of Jesus is where the power is and he’s given us the authority to use His name. Now that’s good news.



          • Richard Epler on July 30, 2019 at 1:55 am

            No where in Matthew does Jesus say such a thing. Jesus said Your righteousness must exceed that of the leaders in his day – or there is no way you’ll be in the Kingdom. In fact – where is any prophecy or teaching given by Jesus in Matthew that his righteousness will apply to anyone else but himself? Where? It doesn’t exist. Also – is God incapable to forgive sin without sheading of blood? Read Ezekiel 18. Paul lied against God Almighty and makes Him out ot be no better than a Baal follower sacrificing their children!!!!?????

            Truth from Cain to Jesus is that repenting and doing better is what brings us closer to God. God said man is capable and responsible to overcome his own sin – that it no posses him and rule over him.

            Once again – PAUL LIED, but GOD IS TRUE>



          • Richard on August 6, 2019 at 7:07 pm

            So you believe the Law at Sinai was given by angels who are not God?
            I’ll choose to believe Jesus and God – thank you!



    • Robert on September 5, 2019 at 1:50 pm

      Richard, If you live in the northern part of the eastern seaboard. Perhaps we can find a way to gather. I am praying to meet people that think this way. Anyone else for that matter. I could not drive 4 hours one way, every day, unless the Lord provide a way. In which case I would.

      • Robert on September 5, 2019 at 2:00 pm

        Umm… nevermind. I should have read all of your posts first. I am willing to be open to my understanding of scripture but I am pretty sure the Holy Spirit would not take me here.

    • Jeremy Bickel on November 27, 2019 at 3:52 pm

      I like your framing and your formulation, Christian. Here I am – pick me. Find me on facebook – the dirty forum is useful, after all, and we are *still* in the world.. Love Christ our saving Master Jesus, Whom God resurrected after sending Him to Earth physically, together wherever you find us – His bodily members. Amen.

  34. Richard Paulson on May 12, 2019 at 1:27 am

    I am not “done” with the church. I am a member of the body of Christ wherever they may be (which is the true church), although I am alone. I am alone because the said churches are not the church. The said “Christian organizations” are not the body of Christ. They are not truly Christian. So that has become increasingly evident over many years the more I am led by God into “all the truth.” Most who say they are Christian are not Christian. So my problem is in not being able to find genuine Christians because they do not pass the most basic test of being a true Christian. In proclaiming the gospel I am rejected by the said Christians because they have universally been taught a false gospel which literally denies the reason why Jesus died and the very SUBSTANCE of the meaning of “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.” Many said Christians may say the right words up to a point, but they deny the very substance of the truth of “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.” If I tell a said Christian what that is, they will not fellowship with me. They will not fellowship or come into the true church of God. Because the church is not a Sunday “service” once per week honouring a man made building. The church is me, which they deny having any fellowship with simply because I do in fact declare the truth.

    • son on May 12, 2019 at 3:53 pm

      Speak freely of our glorious Lord Jesus to anyone and everyone, brother, as His Spirit may prompt you.
      Share Jesus with others.
      Be thankful to Him and humble.
      THAT is the TRUE church.

    • Jim T. on May 14, 2019 at 6:30 am

      1 John 1:8 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

      “If we say that we have no sin”, we deceive ourselves, and “the truth is not in us.” You think more highly of yourself then you aught.

      Who told you you have the “true Bible” ? Not God, I assure you. Jesus clearly stated that the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth. I cannot find any indication in the Bible that proclaims that an English king and a bunch of men labelled “scholars” would take over for the Holy Spirit in and around the 1600″s. Your verbal assaults on those who are simply sharing what is in their hearts is an indicator of your inner insecurity. You tweak the scriptures to fit what you desire them to say rather than allowing them to speak to you. Case in point is your misrepresentation of Hebrews 10:26. For many centuries the power and control hungry, hell-fire and brimstone types within organized religion have utilized the same misguiding interpretation which results in the lost receiving the false message that there are people who are capable of “not” sinning in the religious arena, and 1John 1:8 says they are liars. If you really take a sincere evaluation of your spiritual walk you will find that you are trying to add some old wine to the new wine…which is never good. Remember Romans 8:1-2; “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” I say all of this with love and I pray our Lord revels to us what is right. Peace.

      • son on May 14, 2019 at 8:52 am

        @Jim T.
        1 JOHN 1:8
        ” If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
        Is there anyone out there that can truthfully say they do not STILL lust?
        What did Paul, Peter and John do when they woke up with a boner?
        Seriously…..the seed of sin is in ALL of us. That’s why God had to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son, out of His Agape for us. Sin is inescapable. Jesus is The Solution to that enigma. No human will ever be perfect on this earth. (Excepting Jesus, of course).

        • Jim T. on May 14, 2019 at 11:44 am

          son,
          Apparently my reply to Richard Paul was entered as a reply to you. I am sorry if it appeared that way. At any rate I am absolutely in agreement with your view. My concern was with what I saw in Richard Paul’s commenting was a sort of subliminal indication that he had successfully gained control over his sinful nature…which as you and I have awakened to is impossible. Why would we even need a Savior if we had even the slightest capability of becoming sinless by our efforts? I was so misguided by the organized religion I grew up in because they transmitted the same message as I seem to see in Richard’s comment that I ended up accepting the belief that I was created to go to hell. I accepted this belief because I found it impossible to be righteous continually and believed that all those people at the church could….so I was some sort of freak. Of course, neither you or I view this as a license to sin. But those of true humility accept their sinful nature, are extremely grateful for the gift of a Savior, which causes us to desire sin less and less. I agree we will not be perfect while in our flesh. Peace!

          • son on May 14, 2019 at 1:28 pm

            Amen, brother!
            As my old friend fessdo says, “We don’t WANT to sin and offend God when we have the Holy Spirit living in us.”
            So, really we are not WILLFULLY sinning, although sin is sin. As you and I agree, we are sinful by nature.
            And, we are admonished in
            MATTHEW 26:41
            “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
            Peace, brother!

            Dave



    • son on May 14, 2019 at 8:43 am

      Hey, fessdo, that’ comparison of Richard to Gregg is interesting. Remember Gregg, the “works man”? Wonder where HE went?

    • son on May 14, 2019 at 10:29 am

      fessdo, ole pal, nice to see you haven’t lost that great sense of humor! Hey, btw, this church I was attending for a while, the pastor started in, suddenly, beating the drum for donations of money. Way he put it, “God wants you to tithe, give donations and make offerings, too.” “Tithe?”, I asked myself. Tithing doesn’t appear anywhere in our new covenant that God gave us, the NT! I then realized that there was a wolf amongst the flock, trying to make those unsuspecting and ignorant folks feel guilty, as though they were transgressing God’s Word by not “tithing”. I scrammed out of that church so fast you could hear the wind whistling amongst the pews, never to return. The pastor, a wolf wearing sheep’s clothing. Thanks to you, I wasn’t buying in on his bs. You taught me well, dear brother. Thanks again!

      Dave

  35. Kevin Untener on April 25, 2019 at 1:44 pm

    It was August, 2001. As I was preparing to go on a mission to Ghana with 18 young souls, I was reading a letter from the pastor of a sister church there and the activities our group was going to engage in. Preaching in various villages, worshiping, casting out demons, etc, etc. When I was reading this, a certain part jumped out at me and stirred my spirit, “casting out demons.”.

    We arrived in Ghana and split in to groups of three and a guide for each group for translation. My group traveled hours to a remote village in the middle of, I don’t really know. Ghana has a very distinct aroma and color. The area is lush green and the earth is a burnt orange. Vultures are in abundance like pigeons in a city. Termites create hills that are up to six feet high and the people smile and glow. Sometimes when people greet each other and talk to one another they will hold hands for an extended time. The village we ended up in for the night had goats and chickens walking around, some huts were wood, some on the outskirts were clay with grass roofs.

    We set up to hold a service in the village school, a typical single-roomed wood building. As the pastor of that village began to speak and the worship team began (a guy playing a homemade drum and a girl with an angelic voice) to sing to signal the start of the service. I was pacing and praying outside the building getting my being ready to be used. Off in the distance I could see a few women dancing in the moonlight to the worship music being played. They were not on their way to attend, they were just enjoying the moment by their hut, it was beautiful.

    The service began and I preached about the power of prayer of a righteous man citing Elisha and how it is meant for everybody to have that power through the righteousness of Christ. As we ended the service, we started worshipping and the people lined up to be prayed over. One by one they came forward to receive prayer. At the end of the line was a teenage girl. When she made her way to the front and spoke with the pastor it was learned that she was full of demons, my spirit leapt, this was the very moment, the very reason I was to be on this mission trip. I told the people of that vision . I prayed, the music rang, I prayed and the people sang. The young lady’s eyes rolled back in her head and I could see nothing but the whites as she flung her head back and her body fell to the floor and the demon left her. The service ended, I was elated and exhausted. We spent a few more days in the village walking from house to house, praying and preaching, I was never lost for the right words, reaching all sorts of souls, and seeing signs everywhere, for thus I know Christ is alive.

    I have seen people from all walks of life living a life of destruction and the Church reaching out to these people changing lives, reuniting families and these people becoming whole again, I know the Church saves.

    I have also seen many of people strung out from condemnation and guilt, broken and hurting deep inside from the constant pressure of trying to do what is right according to the preaching and teaching of those deemed as leaders of the Church. I know the people are imperfect.

    A few years ago as the world was going through debate on same sex marriage, the Church didn’t know how to respond. Some responded with open arms and other responded with condemnation, no uniformity, it was very confused and confusing. Unfortunately the president of the congregation I was attending announced from the pulpit as he was preaching that he would not live in a country where that allowed same sex marriage. I was like What? your called to reach the poor, the hurting and to preach the good news of salvation to the lost and you’re preaching this. That stuck with me, and not in a good way. He was preaching hate and condemnation while supposed to be representing love and grace. Yes, the people are imperfect.

    You wrote you can not separate Church from Christ, this is truth, but where it gets convoluted is when one needs to separate the people (church) from the Church. This is a main concept I have learned in my spiritual walk, follow Christ, not people. When a person does wrong from a high position in the Church, the masses do not separate that person from the Church or from Christ, they blame both the Church and Christ for that person’s actions because that person is representing Christ and the Church, thus the Church is at fault, Christ is to blame. This will be and is the downfall of the Church. One must be able to separate the people of the Church from the Church itself.

    A man must work out his own salvation. Follow me as I follow Christ..these quotes from the Bible tells an individual he or she must dig in and find the truth from scripture, prayer, worship and the simple eyeball test of “if it doesn’t fit, you must acquit.” If a Catholic priest molests a child, obviously it isn’t God, it’s the individual, if a pastor cries for donations and then buys a plane, we know it isn’t the Church, it’s the individual. But in today’s culture, if a person misrepresents a company, that person is lambasted by the media, fired by the company and the masses elect to boycott that company, until forgotten. It’s hard to separate the individual from the company. as to it is with the imperfect people that make up the perfect Church.

    The Church is built on the principle of salvation and Christ is the head. It’s a spiritual and devine entity beyond ones physical ability to see, hold, feel or even imagine. This Church shall not be overcome by anything for it resides in a realm beyond people. But the church, the people of this world with their several doctrines that conflict one another, the bingo parties and potlucks, out reaches and squabbles is not the same entity, though it carries the same name. It is not made up of Christ but people who elect to try and follow Christ to the best of their abilities. We must separate the Church from the church of people or call it something else, because it is two distinct and different entities. One is man made, physical and completely flawed, while the other is devine and spiritual and one must be able to discern the difference for his or her own salvation and sanity. Know Christ, Know love and know the difference.

    Thanks for listening

    Kevin

    • Jim T. on April 25, 2019 at 2:51 pm

      it.I share from a heart of desiring all to have clarity regarding spiritual matters. If one sincerely “listens” to the scriptures one will awaken to the reality that the greatest conflict or source of conflict in the universe is not good vs. evil but rather truth vs. lie. There is no where in the New Covenant that commands the erection of buildings, whether great or quaint, in which an organized religious entity is housed. There is no where in the New Covenant that commands the establishment of priestly castes, or scholastic/academic framed biblical instruction. There is no where in the New Covenant that commands the chain-of-command, dictatorial, atmosphere of gospel preaching that is the standard of the majority of organizations wrongly labelled “churches”. These are just a few of the lies that have poisoned the actual “Church” which is correctly defined as a word referring to the collective of believers in Christ. The assembly of believers mentioned within the scriptures refers to sincere believers in Christ coming together…wherever, whether in a home or in the park, on and on, and sharing from their personal experience with God and His Word under the primary guidance of the Holy Spirit. The only way possible to gain discernment between what is truth and what is a lie is to follow Christ’s Words [not the interpretations of the human intellect] “…then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” Free from what ? Free from the lie! Do not take my word as gospel…ask God to reveal His truth and be open to receiving it.

    • Tammy on September 16, 2019 at 12:56 am

      Jesus loves the sinner. He hates the sin.

  36. Michelle Lake on April 17, 2019 at 12:52 pm

    Your article is great in theory, but in my experience of 28 years of following Christ, most leadership is not open to any correction. They have “their vision” and unfortunately, if your criticisms of biblically incorrect practices in the church are brought to their attention, you become the problem. The Word of God should settle issues in the church, but it doesn’t. Modern day churches model themselves after other churches and not the biblical church as prescribed in scripture. Call it impractical to act out Acts 2:42, but my husband and I do this twice a week with groups of believers. We are accountable to each other to make sure the word of God is not misused. We do still go to “corporate, organized worship” at a local, biblically sound (as far as we can see) church, but we are very hesitant to becoming affiliated with any church again. Our experience of the church being a business and people being part of the “machine” has been a stumbling block to our faith. Jesus’ analogy of the Body is one that is described as a garden with words like vinedresser, grafted in, part-of, vine and branches, being used to describe what the Church should look like. Never once do I see the Body referred to as a well-oiled machine, which disposable parts.

    • HoosierConservative on April 18, 2019 at 1:59 pm

      I’ve never met a church leader who was open to negative feedback, no matter how graciously you framed it. Laity is looked down upon as not being capable of exegesis or discernment. You can warn until you’re blue in the face, as nicely as possible, but they do what they want.

    • Carla on April 22, 2019 at 9:32 pm

      “I’m all churched out. . . .” Tamela Mann, the notable gospel singer had that lyric in the song titled, “Take Me to the King.” That segment of the song hit home. To understand why I don’t attend and join the membership of an organized church, a person should take into account my personal history related to my upbringing and culture (as an African-American and a PK). My father was a preacher for over forty years, and my mother—as his wife—a teacher/evangelist. I am the sixth of eight siblings. My entire life, with my siblings from the time when we were born was all about “attending church” on the regular. We ate and breathed church! It was much like the following:

      Sunday Morning: Sunday School at 9:00 a.m. Followed by Morning Worship at 11:00 a.m. And if there was a special program planned with another church as the guest, then most likely we would eat dinner at the church and stay for the program until around 11:00 p.m. Or, we would return home and eat, and within an hour and a half, return to church. If we didn’t have guest, most likely there was a YPWW (Young People Willing Workers) program for the young people to attend at night.

      Monday Night: Women’s Auxiliary Meetings around 7:00 p.m.

      Tuesday Night: Choir Rehearsal from 7:00 p.m. to around 10:00 p.m.

      Wednesday Night: Church Service starting at 8:00 p.m., maybe dismissing around 10:30 p.m.

      Friday Night: Church Service starting at 8:00 p.m., usually dismissing around 11:00 p.m. (since Saturday wasn’t a school night, staying late wasn’t considered a problem).

      Saturday Afternoon: Sunshine Band for the youngsters. By Saturday night, perhaps a District Meeting, a Musical (Mid-night or another program), a dinner sale or special program. . . It could be several things planned for that night.

      Then start all over again on Sunday! And many times we were the guest church for other local churches, so we had to quickly eat dinner and then off to that local church or—in many cases—churches that took us out of the state.

      BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE!
      A “revival” usually lasted a whole week. That meant EVERY night of the week.
      The holidays were nonstop! There was Good Friday services around noon at the church. Then Resurrection Sunday, which was the custom. My mother would prepare Sunrise Breakfast for the members of the church on Sunday morning, and her daughters helped to prepare it prior to sunrise, around 4:00 a.m., and then help clean up afterwards. After that, change clothes for Sunday School and church service for the entire day. My mother also hosted Christmas dinners for the church members—preparing food and entertainment. Christmas programs included plays, readings, and poems (that meant the PKs had to participate in a big way). Also, my siblings and I were singers and instrumentalist with our own singing group. We occasionally went out of town to sing and perform on the weekends, BUT, we had to be back in time for Sunday Morning church, no matter how late we arrived home.
      Though I was attending a university in my hometown, there was little to no time to work on my school curriculum. I was too tired and too busy with “church stuff” to really care about my academic courses. As a consequence, I rarely attended my classes and didn’t finish past my junior year. I was burnt OUT!

      Was I “saved” in my teen years under my father’s ministry? No. Did I have a healthy respect for Jesus Christ and the things of God? Yes. My siblings and I were taught to respect God, church, and tried our best to behave in a “righteous” way to please our parents, even though I never fully understood the gospel message in a personal way as to having a relationship with Christ. I wasn’t a smoker nor a drinker, and, had never attended a secular party or went to a bar in my life. I didn’t use profanity. . . I was a decent person from the viewpoint of being moral. Perfect? No way! I was well aware that if I had died in my sins, hell would be my eternal home.

      Let’s fast forward to my adult life.
      After I married and moved to another state (I married a military man), I made plans to finally “enjoy” my life, but it wasn’t to be so. After moving into an apartment—it was on a Good Friday—I felt this horrible depression that I felt I didn’t want to live. I started reminiscing about Good Friday services and missing my family. So, I turned on the radio (there was no Facebook, YouTube, etc., in those days). The channel had several preachers on the station, and I listened to what I had been taught all my life, but never wanted to accept. Out of all the preachers that spoke, only ONE preacher (until this day I still don’t know who he is) talked about Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, and it so convicted me that I began to cry. Then, I saw what appeared to a vision—a cloudlike type of vision as though it had materialized in my bedroom! The scene was extremely bright but cloudy. I can’t quite explain it to this day. But it was Jesus hanging on the cross in my bedroom! I couldn’t distinguish His face because it was so bloody as though mauled, and the brightness was nearly blinding! His entire body hung stretched and He seemed to be breathing out His last breaths. In His presence I felt FILTHY—just dirty and unclean in His presence and in the glaring light. So, I turned my face away, crying profusely in shame and unworthiness. And Jesus said to me in a quiet voice that was laden with suffering, “I would’ve done it just for you.”

      Those words hit me like a bolt of lightning! And the gospel message became instantly clear and alive: if I was the only sinner in the world, Jesus would’ve given His life just to save me alone. It was on that Good Friday in April that I gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ right there in my apartment! My husband then accepted Jesus as his Savior that following May.

      My husband and I did find a church that had taught us well. Unfortunately, that pastor and wife divorced a couple of years later. But my husband and I found ourselves too busy again! I was on the Pastor’s board. I was the church secretary, also in the choir, and on the Anniversary Committee and working part-time in a secular job while trying to balance it all. It was program after program after program again. . . Eventually, my husband was given PCS orders to another state. We were given a letter of commendation for our church attendance and a letter to take with us with a plaque extolling our dedication from the pastor. That was in 2006. The pastor had reunited with his wife before his passing to glory. My husband and I still have the letter of recommendation because we haven’t joined a church since then. Though we do drop in to visit one specific church in our area, we have not joined a membership. We are approaching sixty-years-old now.

      There is much more I want to say, but for the sake of making this too lengthy, I wasn’t taught anything about “eschatology” in my father’s church, nor in the church I had attended once I became saved. Though the pastors would mention the Rapture, they never went into detail about it, and rarely taught from the book of Revelation (not that I could remember). So, one day I met a Catholic apologist online in a Christian forum. I didn’t even know what an “apologist” was! He taught me how to defend “the faith,” and I learned (I was, and still am a Protestant) how to defend the gospel of Christ concerning faith in grace. For nearly two years he put me in a position to defend the reason why I believed in salvation in Jesus Christ through faith in grace alone, and to prove solo scripture as sound doctrine outside of oral tradition relating to Catholic dogma. He taught me to the point that he couldn’t even defend his own faith after a while. Facebook was only about three years old then, and I wasn’t on any social media platforms. Soon, I was learning about Catholicism, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormonism, SDA, etc., and I had learned to defend against such heretical beliefs with Scriptural proves. That was around 2007. I researched, learned, and grew in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord. I eventually learned about the Rapture, The Second Coming, the Tribulation. . . eschatology in general. I learned outside the organized church. YouTube is a treasure-trove of learning about eschatology (I believe the Pre-tribulation viewpoint, btw). Needless to say, I have a “relationship” with Jesus Christ. And though “fellowship” is good when assembling with others, (“as for some”—implying what is the custom for some people, as written in Hebrew 10:25) much of my learning was in prayerful study of the Scriptures with online sites, and those I have never met before, and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. He is the BEST Teacher. I have a true love especially for eschatology. I’ve learned much from the book of Daniel, Ezekiel, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Revelation, and other apocalyptic books in the Bible. I couldn’t have learned nearly as much had I continued in the way that I was raised—constantly in church nearly every day of the week.

      I’m not saying that church attendance is not applicable in doing the service and work of the Lord Jesus, I’m saying that sometimes church activities and meetings will keep one so busy that one can’t find the time to earnestly enjoy working for the Lord Jesus. Now I have “liberty” in the direction to which He has appointed me to go. I am yet learning and enjoying working for Jesus, and have started using a PowerPoint program as an animation-like presentation on YouTube about eschatology, starting with the Rapture. It is time-consuming, but I am enjoying the work I was given to do by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    • Mick on April 25, 2019 at 12:38 pm

      I was brought up as a Catholic. In the catholic NOBODY speaks to you and you can be anonymous. However it can get a bit grating after years of attending and know one including the priest will even make eye contact with you. So I tried other churches I am very interested in the reformed and protestant teaching. HOWEVER the churches I have attended LEAP on you as you come through the door, insisting on hugging you immediately (not good). They are familiar and basically GRILL you to find out all about you. It was like being interrogated. I went to one church and the hugging false smiles and interrogation went further they weren’t happy that my wife (less religious) wasn’t coming and would not let up. In the end I persuaded her to come with me. we where then interrogated by complete strangers as a couple. After two weeks once all knowledge was gained NOBODY spoke to us again.
      Also they where obsessed with interviewing criminals on the stage, they were treated like rock stars and the ordinary parishioners especially the older ones, totally ignored, terrible. And then theres t5he ecstaticism with the hand waving and once people falling down in a form of mass hypnotic hysteria. NOT FOR ME
      So in summary Catholic church cold as ice, Protestant church all over you and falsely intrusive. It kills my faith, so I prefer to study my bible and pray and have a close relationship with the lord and thats better for me. Sad but there it is.

      • son on April 25, 2019 at 2:50 pm

        You are right, Mick. Worship, commune with and love Jesus in the quiet and peace of your soul, in private meditation and contemplation.
        The church wants your money. It’s just a matter of time before they ask you for it.
        You are of no use to the church except to provide money to them.

  37. Alex Mclaughlin on April 16, 2019 at 4:09 pm

    What I hear through these posts is a constant whining about the faults of church. Jesus is perfect, the church not so much. (and never can be) So criticizing and cursing adds more fuel for the enemy in the spiritual realm to keep animosity and strife alive. As this topic is obviously coming from disappointments and wounds of the past then I suggest the constrictive response is to do 2 things. Ask Jesus to reveal the deep source of your discontent and obey what he shows you to do in your life, and secondly speak life and blessings into bad situations and be part of the solution

    • Todd on May 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm

      That is the point. Man will never be able to create or possess a church without spot or wrinkle or any such blemish. So why are we trying to build the church for the Lord when He said He was the one who would build it? He will present to Himself a pure and spotless bride. Unfortunately people live under the illusion that the church as defined by Constantine’s con is the same church that Jesus is building. They are not the same!!!

      Regards

    • Asher on November 20, 2019 at 7:50 pm

      Alex Mclaughlin, just because something isn’t politically correct doesn’t mean it isn’t biblically correct. It is not politically correct to say anything that isn’t positive, but it is biblically correct.

      The Bible tells you to guard your heart and your words with it. It does not tell you to refrain from telling the truth or being honest. If you are having a bad day, you can say it. The doctrine that your words can always positively (New Age) or negatively (human lack of wisdom) affect you is false. Jesus said things that our societies would consider negative about others and about Himself. Was He wrong?

      People are allowed to speak the truth, even if ‘negative’, about the churches and christians. It was Jesus who, as I stood outside a church in Kalamazoo, MI in the summer of 2012, told me to leave that church AND the institutional churches– saying that I would not find Him in them– and to move on, that He would lead me to a fellowship of like-minded brethren whom He affectionately called twice, “The Lord’s people.” Two months after I left, I returned to an institutional church since I had not found any real fellowship, but as I was going to the church (once again), the Lord brought this passage to me: “Why do you seek the living among the dead” (Luke 24:5). I told Him, “Lord, that sounds like You; but would Jesus call christians “dead”? My religious thinking was in for a shock as He immediately led me to Revelation 3:1 where He said to an entire church of christians, “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” This was said to nothing but christians: “You are dead.” That’s because no one tells the truth just like it is without regard for political correctness and without partiality or favoritism like the Lord. So if Jesus can tell ‘negative truths’ about christians, then so can christians. Let them do so. It is truth (against lies) that make men free.

  38. Becky on March 31, 2019 at 4:11 pm

    This will be the reason for the downfall of modern churches..
    The Bible tells us that Christ, being the head of His church (Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is the head of his wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body.”), chose his apostles to travel from city to city teaching the gospel (Luke 9:1-2 “Then he called his twelve desciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.”). In each city, they formed “A” local church which consisted of a group of believers who chose to accept Christ as their Savior. It wasn’t a building that was erected, it was the chosen ones in Christ, the set apart, …Christs’ children. (Leviticus 20:26 “And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye shall be mine.”)

    1 Corinthians 1:12 “Unto the church(people) of God which is at Corinth”

    Revelation 2:1 “Unto the church(people) of Ephesus”

    Revelation 2:8 “Unto the church (people)of Smyrna”

    Revelation 2:12 “Unto the church (people)of Pergamos”

    Revelation 2:18 “Unto the church (people)of Thyatira”

    Revelation 3:1 “Unto the church (people) of Sardis”

    Revelation 3:7 “Unto the church (people) of Philadelphia”

    Revelation 3:14 “Unto the church (people) of Laodiceans”

    1 Thessalonians 1:1 “Unto the church (people) of Thessalonians”

    ….and so on.

    The Bible does not instruct us to have a different church on every corner. There is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5) and one church, “for one spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), which is the body of Christ. It does not instruct us to have many different denominations teaching different beliefs, It says that “there be no division in the body” (1 Corinthians 12:25) which is the body of Christ, the believers, the true Church of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but ye be perfectly joined together and in the same judgment.”

    1 Corinthians 12:13 “For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews of Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have all been made to drink into one spirit.”

    Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Jesus Christ.”

    Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

    So, are modern churches truly of God and a part of Christs’ church if they go against His word for the sake of teaching their own divided beliefs???

    Romans 16:17-18 “Now I beseech you,brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

    Luke 11:17 “But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against itself falleth.”

    Mark 3:24-26 “And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”

    False teachers, which the Bible warns us about, are the reason there are so many modern churches/denominations in which the majority of the population follows. However, according to the Bible, the most traveled route is not the way to life. Eternal life through Christ.

    Matthew 7:13-15 “Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat; because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.”

    2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies.”

    2 Corintians 11:13 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ”.

    2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come that they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap themselves to teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn their ears away from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.”

    Acts 20:30 “Even from your own number, men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”

    1 John 4:4-6 “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world, and the world heareth them.”

    John 4:24 “God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in the spirit and in truth.”

    • Son on April 11, 2019 at 5:48 pm

      Modern day churches want your money. That’s all they want. They can pretend otherwise, but they’re after your money. Look at filthy rich Joel Osteen. Every pastor wishes they were Joel Osteen.
      Many are called, but few are chosen.

    • Jill G Roberts on April 16, 2019 at 2:54 pm

      Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Jesus Christ.”

      So, among the scripture quotes which you have chosen to display, one would think this one above would help you see that the statement is not literal. Of course there remains before and after the time of Jesus on Earth both male and female, and other beliefs, creeds, nationalities and conditions…but the Church of Christ asks us to co-exist as if these differences matter not.

      I applaud Neiuwhof’s view and hope all can someday decipher Scripture’s intent.

    • bob on April 16, 2019 at 4:19 pm

      what an excellent post. Question is, so now what?

    • Richard Paulson on May 12, 2019 at 5:10 am

      Becky, you made a good point about the divisions or sects falsely called “Christian.” They are not the churches of God. There is one true church that is the “pillar and ground of the truth.” But it is not a matter of simply telling someone to “go to church.” I cannot find the church anywhere. I cannot find the “pillar and ground of the truth.” The true church is scattered because of the lack of true shepherds. The shepherds are mostly wolves and their said flock become wolves themselves through dedicating themselves to them. God wants to unite the true church, however, the said churches are in the way, hindering and stopping that from happening.

  39. Marie on March 31, 2019 at 11:28 am

    I didn’t leave church because I don’t believe and am suddenly a filthy sinner; I loved my church and my community there. But church is a place to work, not to rest. Church has demanded so much of me and my other friends in leadership that I don’t even know what it is to give without compulsion anymore; everything is demanded of me before I even have a chance to give with an open heart. They don’t care that I’m poor, or tired, or overworked. It’s just take, take, take. Demand, demand, demand. I left because church used me up and called me a “consumer Christian” when I begged for rest.

    My time away from the church has shown me that there are MANY Christians out here, real, actual Christians, who don’t go to church. The church loves to accuse “culture” of being consumeristic, skeptical, sexually immoral, loving sin, more carnal and and secular than its ever been before, but that just indicates how out of touch the church is with reality.

    The church doesn’t need all these studies and surveys and lists. The church needs to just listen for once and really hear what’s going on, without being defensive and trying to explain away and try to absolve itself of uncomfortable truth.

    Want to know why millennials don’t go to church? It’s because millennials are exhausted and poor, and church does nothing but demand something of them. Give millennials a place to come and rest in God’s love. Not at 10:00 am sharp on their only day off. Don’t demand casseroles, don’t demand they find time to volunteer, don’t demand money they don’t have, don’t demand them to find time for new programs, don’t demand that they lead your new programs. Just let them come and be still and know that God is God, and that He loves them for them, not for what He can get out of them. If they want to leave right after the service, let them go. If they need a quiet space, don’t force them to be social.

    If the church wasn’t such a business trying to sell something, and more just a place of unpressured, unhurried, expectation-free REST, things would look a lot different. It’s almost impossible to meet with God when everyone else won’t stop screaming about what they want and expect of you.

    • KIM LUCCI ELBUALY on August 24, 2019 at 6:26 pm

      Marie and Others Who Believe They Know Scripture So Much:

      To my sister (Marie) in Christ. We are called to learn and instill healthy boundaries. God is three separate persons in one. The Father. The Son. And the Holy Spirit. He calls us to be separate from others. Separate but one. Meaning. It is our responsibility to set healthy Christian boundaries every day in our lives. Especially as members of our church. Get yourself the Christian book titled Boundaries or Boundaries in Marriage.

      I grew up in a family where I was never taught healthy boundaries. I was abused by my neighbors. Abused by others. Stop letting this happen to you and instill boundaries within your life. Many people never learned healthy boundaries, because they never grew up with them. But believe me. You are not to old to learn and grasp God’s truth. His Holly Word and how we are to live with healthy boundaries! People will abuse you if you let them. Most people never know that they have pushed you or done anything wrong. It’s our own responsibility to tell them NO when we can’t. Setting boundaries with people who take advantage of us is difficult at first! But God will give you the strength, power, love and truth from his Word by the guidance of His Holy Spirit.

      If you give ALL of your heart, ALL of your mind and soul to Christ every day! Not when you feel like it or have time for! Every day. Throughout the day if need be. Stop blaming others. Stop blaming the church. We are called to worship together. Have fellowship together. If you don’t like your church, ask God to help you change it! If you need to go to a different church, go. If you still don’t like one and can’t find one, ask God to help you. You never know what God will do. He may ask you to be a preacher or a teacher of His Word. Then you all will know what it takes to lead a group of dead beats who complain and find fault in everything and anything! Just because!
      Stop winning all of you on this forum. Get up off your butt and ask God what your purpose is. Ask him to show you if you dare to walk into his plan he has for your life. He will give you plenty to do. And you won’t have time to complain any more about all the issues you brought to the churches you attended. Find one that is rooted in God’s Word. His love and his grace. Because without those things in a church, people cannot heal! And pray! Pray that all churches in Christ will come together. Pray and visualize that God’s Church will in fact come into his plan. After that get everyone else you know to pray….and ask and believe by Faith in Christ that His Kingdom will be done. Because all of you are missing the scriptures in Revelation, that speaks about a new transformed earth by each and everyone who walk by faith in it.

      And lastly, love your brother as yourself. Walking in God’s Word. Seeking God’s Will throughout each day and allowing Him to transform you by His grace each day. He will purify your life through His grace. You all are so caught up in who knows what. Stop it! Just let God lead your life! He will purify your life over time. All those who are using scripture to justify living and having a sinful nature need to read Revelations. The new heaven will be in our heart; which he will purify and transform in us. You all are trying to justify your untransformed lives in Christ, because you fail to yield everything to Him.

      If you want your experiences to change in any church; just ask God what your purpose is. But be ready to give up everything you thought defined your comfortable life. Because you will be surprised! If you let everything behind, follow him. Then maybe you can complain about those pastors. Otherwise stop living as a coward. Ask Him what your purpose is in his Book of Life. He will show you!

      Just An Artist,
      …who said the Our Father too many times and said as a child. Lord what does it mean to art in heaven as it is on earth? Lord I want to art too……Next thing I know I am making art. Attending college. Working as a studio artist. At some point, after feeling stuck and not feeling like I was growing. I asked if he would make a way for me to go back to college. To learn new techniques and processes. He made a way to return to college for my MFA with a teaching scholarship. He opened doors and kept me safe, even when I fell and made a mistake. I walked by faith and he delivered me from my past and now I am fully centered on Christ in everything I do and make. Before my work was about my faith in Christ. Now it is about the Word of God and my story of how he saved me again by his amazing grace. So to all those who think God does this or that. Those who think so much are just fools. Just live the life he called you to live. You won’t be sorry. It will be everything and beyond what you imagine. If everyone asked God to show them and bring them into their purpose you too will live the life that he intended for you. If everyone took responsibility for their own relationship in Christ Jesus, then they can share the part of self God intended. On his time.

      Living By God’s Grace and Love
      Kim Lucci Elbualy
      kimluccielbualy.blogspot.com

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  41. Bernie Graw on March 27, 2019 at 9:24 pm

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  42. Shawn on February 21, 2019 at 10:51 am

    I love my church and what it does for our church community, our neighborhoods, and the world. I find that we do a lot more together than I can accomplish on my own. I see lives changed week after week. I wonder how much time we waste debating about these matters…with time we are to steward? Effective debating has done little if anything for God’s kingdom.

  43. Atheist Man on February 20, 2019 at 2:31 pm

    Church sucks.

  44. Son on February 19, 2019 at 1:05 am

    Are you sleeping, are you sleeping?
    Brother Fessdo, Brother Fessdo?
    Morning bells are ringing, morning bells are ringing
    Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.

    • Todd on February 19, 2019 at 4:49 pm

      Okay, I’m just a simple man. If me being out of the “church” as it has been described here makes me wrong or sinful I can only hope that the sacrificial suffering of Christ is enough to save me from the err of my ways. If it’s not I will certainly suffer the consequences. I just find it hard to imagine that as Jesus hung on the cross He cried because He knew His sacrifice would not be sufficient to save me from myself. To save someone that played the game, knew the game, and manipulated the game of this thing we call church. And now that I am tired of playing my entire existence in eternity is to be condemned to a fiery hell? That’s not the God I serve. There is sure to be people that will disagree and will accept nothing less than total allegiance to the system but I refuse to bow. It took me 36 years in the institution we call the modern-day church to find out I did not know the God I said I served. I only found Him walking down a lonely road to Golgotha.

      If we truly believe that the current structure of what was a construct of Constantine is the true church then I must ask the questions, is it without spot or wrinkle, or any such blemish. Any honest man would say no. That is because the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ is about individuals who have gone into a holy bed chamber and had intimate time with Yahweh, Jehovah, Elohim. It is made up of the portable tabernacles that have made Him their habitation and not a group of people that have put the name Jesus on the sign of their church. That sign is only an indication of where those people have stopped in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Can these people be saved and a part of the true church, ABSOLUTELY? As individual churches or habitations of the Most High, definitely. If they have that true 3rd dimensional relationship, then most certainly so. But those people would know that going to a building and singing, hearing a preacher, and giving money does not define their salvation nor is it a testimony of their spirituality. Their hope, faith, trust, and lives are hidden with Christ in God.

      The mentality of it being all about my church or your church is where we have truly missed it. Even the word itself is an incrimination of that which the all worship. DENOMINATION=DIVIDED NATION We, that is man, has divided the nation of God. With each new church that arises after a split, or a new denomination that is added to the, now more than 2000 ones registered, we lay yet another fist to the face of Christ where He is marred to the point that no one can see who He truly is. The allegiance to denomination rather than obedience to Him is at the heart of the illusion. First, we divided over liturgy or the manner or order of worship, then by doctrine, and ultimately by religion. The Father must be truly confused or we would have the church that He promised. Instead look at what the church, that is more the leadership, has been doing in the shadows and it is Ezekiel Chapter 8 all over again.

      When Christ came all the shadows went away and He became our Church, our Tabernacle, our Temple, our Ark of the Covenant. We moved out of the shadow of what was a type and moved into the light. The construct of what it is to be is all in Him, by Him, and through Him. Not a manmade self-serving and self-appointed Apostolic ministry, and that’s not a reference to the religion. Anyone that will have the guts to read all the history of the “church” would conclude that is was no more than a mafia form of religion. This was much more to be desired than a humble and giving form of relationship with the Father and with their fellow man.
      I don’t hate but rather hate what is all has become and those that have been left in the wake of its narcissism and self-righteousness. And this is what we call the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. I weep because so many have been bewitched into believing that they will never have any more of God than the pastor will allow. The princes of the pulpits that have no understanding beyond the elementary principles of Christ are somehow thought of as seasoned men of the word because they wear the three piece suit just right, and the handkerchief is held with the grip of a master mason. All of these are styling cues that are paraded as their bona fides of spirituality. It seems that we all worship that which we do not understand.

      How did this whole thing begin? 1 man and 1 woman in a garden with 1 God. It’s that simple and yet that deep. We apparently have ulterior motives in the continuation of Constantine’s experiment that up to now has been one of man’s most successful achievements. But that is the problem it’s man’s not God’s. All we did was take an ear from here, and nose from there, an eye from that and then called it God and told the world to bow down and worship it. We created something to be sure, a graven image.

      The truth? Man wants the control over the masses. What they say, where they go, what they believe. More than this, it’s mammon, all with the sole purpose of lining their own pockets and the pockets of their denomination for the sole purpose or power, prestige, and the propagation of it’s own kind. Self-preservation is the first instinct of man. It’s is never about making disciples but rather winning converts.

      They all are no mystery to me, I used to be them.

    • Son on February 19, 2019 at 6:24 pm

      Hi Todd,
      It’s a tangled mess, for sure. My friend and brother Fessdo (where are you, ole buddy?) would say that The Blood of Jesus is all we need for salvation unto eternal life and I tend to agree. If going to church brings one peace, how can that be a bad thing? If you have God’s Peace that passeth understanding without going to church, that’s a good thing, right?
      Who’s going to heaven is up to Jesus, not us. He told us that if we believe in Him, we will be given eternal life. I believe Him.
      John 3:16

      Stay blessed, brother Todd.

      Dave

      • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 10:27 am

        Amen, we have been conditioned to attached the completed work of Christ to our ability to join a church and show up for every service. It is interesting to me that Jesus Himself never preached a gospel that was church attending centric. He continually spoke about the secrets of the Kingdom of God.

        Do not be mistaken I believe that it is both good and pleasant that we live together in unity but that does not imply that we having to meet at a specific location with a steeple and choir. Some of the most enlightening and glorious times that I have had in my communion with the Father has been in the middle of nowhere with a roaring campfire. Sometimes alone and sometimes with a few others. It is such a contrast to what I had been a part of for 36yrs. Though it may be a personal indictment about me I often tell people that I was a professional Christian. Now I am a nobody to that world but have found solace in the shadows of the almighty and would never go back.

        I am so humbled by His presence. At times, I think that the highest form of worship is utter and complete silence. It might sound crazy but the loudest sound in the world is silence before the Father. We are always too busy talking, singing, shouting, dancing, laughing, of which all are good at the right time, but being quiet and still as He rises from within you becomes a crescendo of sound unlike anything ever heard. That is because glory never comes down but rather it goes up. It was between the faces of the cherubim that the glory of God did go up as they cried Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty.

        You are correct when you said, “Who’s going to heaven is up to Jesus, not us.” That is a powerful statement. It is diametrically opposed to what I call pseudo evangelism propagated by the system. They made us believe that making converts and saving souls were up to us but that is not the case. Winning souls simply means that we are to sow the seed of Christ, then another waters, but He gives the increase. What we are to be about doing is making disciples. But that that is not something that happens for 1 hour at 5pm on Sunday evenings. It is the pouring of your life in Christ into another person. Praying, weeping, laughing, lamenting, and celebrating as you share each other’s lives. Few people do that anymore but it’s understandable with Facebook and twitter getting the lion share of our lives these days.

        At the end of it all only those whom He knows will be welcomed to share in the Kingdom of God that has been prepared for them. It so wonderful to know that a person that He does not know can never be saved and a person He does know can never be lost. That is why He is the only Lord of the universe. Everything happens for His pleasure, all things are naked before Him, He is the beginning and the end at the same time. So, we can take our rest in knowing that no person will ever go to hell because we failed to witness to them. There is a much deeper revelation here but not for this time.

        Thank you for your words of life brother they have brought peace and comfort to me. I appreciate you indulging me. This truly is all that I have left in the world, to continue my search for the height, width, and breadth of Him and His love, and to speak with others of His goodness and mercy as well all cry Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. Thank you for being a part of bringing glory to Him by your beautiful words.

        Kind regards,

        Todd

        • Asher on November 21, 2019 at 5:18 am

          Todd, hi. I can definitely relate to the things you are saying. I really relate where you wrote this: “Some of the most enlightening and glorious times that I have had in my communion with the Father has been in the middle of nowhere with a roaring campfire.” It reminds me of the God who met Moses in the burning bush– the authentic God, the biblical God, the One about whom Moses later wrote, “Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God” (Psalm 90:1-2). Selah.

          The christians who are trapped in or who prefer religion and the christian who has left institutionalized religion but still quibbles over the right way to ‘do church’ have both missed it. This is about much more than where or how you ‘do church’. This is all about God’s glory. God “created them, male and female.” If they desire the same gender as themselves or think they are the wrong gender, that does not glorify God. God is glorified when everything functions according to His [original] design– whether on the natural plane or when it regards ‘religion’. It is all the same. That is why Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan, using a non-believer to express the idea that one doesn’t have to be a [christian] to know the right thing to do and to do it.

          Truth be told, at least 9 out of 10 christians (I’m talking about church-going christians who do not know God) are more likely to find God “in the middle of nowhere with a roaring campfire” than in any church service. At best, ‘church’ is focused around the clock and the program which go together. The clock sits on the throne of every church and dictates everything: ‘time to enter the building; time to drink coffee and socialize; time for announcements; time to sing; time to cough up your money; time for a short prayer; time for a short story from the pastor; time for a sermon; time for an altar call; time for a short prayer; time to socialize a bit more; time to leave the building.’ No matter how religious or ‘righteous’ a church may seem, Jesus cannot be Lord of any place if the place already has another lord. So Jesus has left the building, not because He has rejected the people in the building (as so many advocates for remaining in or returning to church buildings think the is the central reason people leave the building), but because the people in the building (starting with the form and ritual of ‘gathering together’) have rejected Him.

          There is something that I often sense strongly on God’s heart when I pray, and it is for ‘the gathering of the [real] Church’ who are simply ‘those who worship the Father in spirit and in truth’, not on Sunday and at 10am. I live in America, and when it comes down to religion, there are only two types of christianity: cultural christianity (christianity that is influenced by and subject to the surrounding culture) and biblical Christianity (the only type of “true religion before God the Father”). American christianity is like American culture (except at least three times deader): people cannot see past their need to for comfort and convenience. So, most christians are willing to deal with the discomfort and inconvenience of getting out of bed early in the morning on one of the only days for rest they have, fussing over what they will wear, ‘getting in character’, and driving to a building for a ritual. But if they were told to pick up and move halfway across the U.S. to be near one or more believers, the notion wouldn’t even land and would fly right over their heads. The sincere believers here should seek a way to firstly meet online and to communicate. In time, God will lead each person to gather with other believers, not to a church building. We are not supposed or meant to be solitary: “God sets the solitary in families” (Psalm 68:6a).

          Lord, You have been our Dwelling Place from generation to generation. Before men had ideas or You ever created people to have opinions, Your truth has always been and is the only truth. Gather Your people, Your true Church, out from the apostasy and laziness and ungodliness of what is currently called ‘church’ and from isolation and solitude and bring them together in every city to be “a kingdom of priests” and not wandering and desolate sheep. This is Your will. Let it be done for Your glory; let it be done for their rest; let it be done, let be done, in Jesus’s Name. Amen.

      • Son on February 20, 2019 at 12:03 pm

        Amen, brother Todd.
        Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. That was beautiful and blsssed, what you said and how you said it.

        God’s Peace to you, brother.

        Dave

  45. HoosierConservative on February 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm

    Count me in among the church quitters. I’m happily married, still in my thirties, white collar professional in a fairly affluent household. Faithfully attended church (and served) for many years. In two decades of being a Christian across many cities and states, I’ve had ONE church that actually came close to real fellowship. I don’t ask for much. I’m not demanding perfection. But why is it so difficult to find a church that’s even halfway decent???

    Churches are full of imperfect people. I get it. But good grief, isn’t there some kind of standard? Isn’t there a point when enough is enough? Do imperfect people have free reign to be appalling in their behavior? When I see things from the pastor and his wife that would never fly even in the most secular business office, what am I supposed to think? When the pastors/elders are no more mature or resourceful than I am, can’t I expect a little fruit?? Why should I attend every Sunday to hear kindergarden teaching from a baby Christian behind the pulpit who slapped together a sermon from internet blogs? How many times can I waste two hours of my life before I’m tired of it? This isn’t an isolated case of one or two churches — this is the NORM. We complain and complain about this, but it falls on deaf ears.

    I’ve actually been in churches where you never knew when you were stepping in a hornet’s next on Sunday morning. You find the pastort’s wife slamming dishes in the kitchen while we she prepares the coffee and donuts, telling anyone who will listen about her buzzard of a husband who is too picky on the worship team. For God’s sake, you’re a fifty year old woman, put on your big-girl pants and get a clue! No, you are not being “transparent” and “relatable” with your equally carnal church memebrs — you are being a reproach on the church. And this isn’t just one or two places, it’s everywhere!! Counting the number of donuts people take? Watching their children like a hawk when they go to a bathroom? How many times do we have to see this junk, and how many times do we have to complain, before pastors get the message??

    And then with the music. Listen, I like great music as much as the next person, but I’m sorry to say your 19 year old daughter isn’t going to nail the vocals of Resurrecting as well as Mack Brock. I don’t want to hear a bad cover band destroy great songs. Just ditch the worship team and play iTiunes from the stage already. It would certainly save the church a lot of time and money. Or maybe choose some less ambitious songs for their ability to induce real worship. I’m tired of leaving church with a headache.

    I’m tired of leaving church feeling like I learned nothing, felt nothing, achieved nothing, and impacted nothing. And leaving means leaving, not getting coffee or lunch with anyone afterward, because there’s always an excuse when I ask. I’m tired of driving away and telling my spouse it was yet another waste of time. I’m tired of examining myself to exhaustion, condemning myself that it’s all my fault because I’m simply too picky, wondering why I can’t seem to lower my standards for the sake of “being in fellowship.” I’m tired of crying myself to sleep on Sunday night because I’m no closer to fitting in at church.

    I have a group of Spirit-filled friends who join me in fellowship all throughout the week. We have Bible study, prayer meetings, counseling, everything the church is supposed to be. We financially assist those in need. We support ministries we believe in. We witness to people and pray for healings and stimulate each other to good works. I’m not bragging or boasting, just being honest. We’re doing all of this with no church building to call home.

    Why is it that my complaints are always dismissed? Why is it always my fault because I’m some sort of rebel without a cause? Why has a pastor never once called on me to explain why I disappeared? Why are there so many blogs like this that misrepresent us? I offically gave up on Sunday morning church about a year ago, and I can’t say I miss it. I want nothing more than to find a group of nice people who study the Bible together with no egos or agendas. Why is that too much to ask???

    • Son on February 18, 2019 at 1:59 pm

      Amen, Hoosier, you NAILED it! Welcome to this blog and hope you can contribute through His Spirit.

      Peace, Blessing and Grace to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus.

      Dave

      p.s. – Carey, do you have time to read any of the comments on this thread?

    • Stu on February 18, 2019 at 2:17 pm

      I wonder if the churches at Galatia or Corinth, at Laodicea or in Thyatira, or any of them were better than they are today. I wish friend I could disagree with you, but yet “Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives.” He threw the money changers out, and stood his ground amongst the hypocrites and brood of vipers. When Jesus saw sin, he did not remain quiet, but called it out. Yet, still, he loved and died for his Church; he did not abandon it. In Thyatira, where Jezebel encouraged its members into sexual perversion, what did Jesus say? Did he tell his followers to leave? Revelation 2:24-25 (NIV)
      “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come.”

      Jesus did not want them to quit, but to overcome. We have become grumblers and complainers. It only took three days after the Red Sea was parted that thousands resumed grumbling—except for two: Joshua and Caleb. They were the only ones to make it. Are we only joyful when circumstances please us? No, I am not any greater than you. But I am twice as old, and by virtue of the fact I had to wait to get there, I am that much more patient. You see things you do not see when you are half as old. You experience things I would not dare have dreamt when I was young, like you. Don’t die from regret. If you have been given wisdom from God, share it with those who are without it. If you do not sin, cast the first stone. God will exalt the humble. Jesus paid it all so that you could have what he deserved. “For these light and momentary troubles have achieved for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.”

      • Son on February 18, 2019 at 2:57 pm

        Stu, that all sounds great. Let me share with you my experience with the church I just quit. When I first began attending, about two months ago, I felt edified by the pastor and his sermons, comfortable with the welcoming, warm and friendly congregation and a sense of satisfaction when I left a service. However, over the last two weeks, the worship music has become objectionable, led by the off-the-wall, egotistical man appointed by the pastor to conduct it, the pastor has preached nothing except for the giving of “tithes” and “offerings”, absolutely nothing inspirational or educational, in fact, the pastor’s sermons have begun sounding to me like “Prosperity Gospel”, which I adamantly oppose (when I hear the names, “Tammy Faye Baker” and “Joel Osteen” I start looking for a barf bag – in my mind, they are the absolute farthest thing from Jesus and His Apostles that I could ever imagine), the so-called “leaders” in the church are resentful of anyone who may walk more closely with Jesus than they do or who would provide a spiritual insight that they did not think of and the attendance at services are rapidly and incrementally dropping off.
        I called a “brother” from the church to ask him a question. I had met him while attending a study group session that he led. He couldn’t be bothered to call me back. I sent him a text, asking him to please call me. No response, so it was not like he didn’t know I wanted to speak with him. That was the final straw. God made it pretty plain to me that He didn’t want me to attend that church anymore. All they really wanted was whatever money they could bully me out of with their “tithing” and “offerings. The saw me as a dollar sign and that’s it! Tithing isn’t even scriptural, not in the NT. So, where does the pastor come off trying to justify “tithing” as a command of God? That was his approach.
        Sheesh! Gimme aa bucket for that bs.
        And you wonder why I don’t buy your rationale, Stu?
        Don’t get me wrong, please. I love and worship Jesus and I do the best I can to please Him as much as He enables me (I don’t take credit for any good works – all authority, every victory is HIS) But I try to avoid stumbling blocks in my life and church has become just that: A STUMBLING BLOCK.
        Thank you, dear, blessed, holy Lord Jesus, for never leaving or forsaking me and for always walking right beside me as I and my brethren in the Grace of Your Spilled Blood patiently, eagerly await your return to make everything right.
        MARANATHA, Lord Jesus! Come soon, Lord!

        Peace to you, brother Stu.

        Dave

        • HoosierConservative on February 18, 2019 at 3:39 pm

          I remember one church where we attended weeknight Bible study led by the pastor. In the middle of a particular lesson, someone asked a question the pastor couldn’t answer. I humbly offered an answer. I saw the room light up (including the pastor) when they realized I was right. The pastor never spoke to me directly again. There was no follow-up to that conversation, not one person in the room asking me out for coffee afterward. Not that I care to be popular, but there was no curiosity to see what else I knew.

          In churches these days you are punished if you display knowledge or maturity above the leadership team. You are marked as a know-it-all. If you want to get along with people, you have to play dumb.

          • Son on February 18, 2019 at 5:00 pm

            And that doth not be bull dung, brother Hoosier!
            ; )



          • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 10:38 am

            Amen, you hit the mark! The prince in the pulpit saw a king and was embarrassed. I can bet after that you became a threat to him. To use a worldly metaphor, the emperor had no clothes not because you told everyone he was naked but you showed everyone he was by being clothed. Well done.

            The whole of the earth groans and travails as a woman in labor. Everyone that reads this blog please here this. The groans and travails of the earth are not because of sin, wickedness, evil, or any other such force or action, not even the devil is the cause. The reason for the earths groaning and travailing is that it is awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God, Romans 8:19 The sons that are to be birthed out in the latter days to follow the one and only Son of God and they are be the light in this world, the bridge builders of His kingdom, dare I say it, the Melchizedek Priesthood for the end times.

            Just consider it…



      • HoosierConservative on February 18, 2019 at 3:25 pm

        Thank you for the reply. Even when Christians disagree, we should be able to have a dialog!

        The church of Ephesus self-destructed due to ravenous wolves in leadership. If we’re going to reference NT churches, let’s be fair and consider their fates. None of the 7 churches in Revelation exist today.. Jesus overturned the tables in the temple — then He spoke eight woes over Jersusalem, called the Pharisees children of the devil, and sent His church to the Gentiles. Let’s not pretend that Paul told us good things were in store for the end-times church. The NT doesn’t say a few plucky Joshuas can turn things around.

        There are only so many times you can overturn the tables. You think pastors want to hear my wisdom? No, that’s called “being critical”and “trying to control the pastor.” Even after serving long-term in churches, I’ve never been asked to lead, teach, advise, or counsel. My chair-setting and floor-mopping skills are in high demand, but not my opinions. I’ve had churches do surveys on the skills and talents of members, but then never do anything with the results. Why bother asking me what I do for a living if you’ve no intention of engaging me? Why ask for my home address if you will literally never visit my house? Why bother asking for feedback if you don’t want to change? “Toxic” members who question these things are welcome to go bless a church down the road.

        So my choices are either to sit in the back reading my Bible while no one cares to engage me (after puzzlingly interrogating me on my background), or stay home in my pajamas and fellowship with real friends. That isn’t a very hard choice. Instead of browbeating us to undertake heroic Jericho efforts, perhaps, just perhaps, the shepherds over the sheep should do their job.

    • Son on February 18, 2019 at 3:29 pm

      AMEN, Hoosier!

    • Disciple for the Lord Jesus Christ on February 18, 2019 at 3:44 pm

      Hi. Hope all is well my God bless the work your doing for his kingdom, just to comment I’m a spirit filled, believer a missionary for the Lord Jesus Christ maybe this will bring you peace and encourage you, the Lord pulled me from the church he only puts me in the Church building is to sit and observe and then give messages to the pastor to let him know where the Church is in error. Other then that, the Lord told me NO CHURCH! We are the Church! God Bless YOU
      and stay strong in the Lord!🙏🙌

      • HoosierConservative on February 18, 2019 at 3:52 pm

        If you sit in the back of a church and keep your mouth shut for a while, it doesn’t too long to spot the errors.

    • Todd on February 19, 2019 at 5:02 pm

      HoosierConservative,

      There are more like you out there, Take some comfort in knowing that others also feel what you feel and see what you see. There is a remnant people that He the Lord has set aside for these latter times. This that have been hidden away in the house of God eating and drinking the substance of Christ. They are those that hunger and thirst for Him more than their daily bread. We have no Father but God. There are no men, no institution or denomination that can lay claim to us as being their sons. This is why you don’t fit in anymore. It is the reason that you leave that building feeling the way you do.

      There is a priesthood that is being but already has been built that will show forth the praises of Him who called us out of the dark into His marvelous light. This priesthood is the reflection of the Father and the Son and it will be the counter balance to evil in these last days.

      I believe that you are on the right path dear brother. Keep pressing, keep pushing, keep tapping into that 3rd dimension and when the time comes you will do the works of your Father.

      • HoosierConservative on February 19, 2019 at 6:23 pm

        Thank you Todd. I continually grow as I learn more about our Savior. He is truly our light in the darkness! Oh how desperately we need Him.

        • Son on February 19, 2019 at 6:28 pm

          Amen, brother. What would we do without Jesus? We’d be totally hopeless! Thank you, Jesus, for coming to save us and thank you, Father, for giving us your own begotten Son Jesus! Amen.

          Dave

        • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 3:32 pm

          As the song said, “without Him I would be nothing, without Him I’d surely fail, without Him I would be drifting, like a ship without a sail.”

          We have no life without Him because we are dead and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. So the only true way to know who you are is to know who He is because you find your true life and identity in Him. This is why Paul’s lamentation was to know Him, the power of His resurrection, and the one most forget about, the fellowship of His suffering.

          You are so dead on, we need Him more than ever. That being said the Father purposely chose to need us to complete himself. He emptied out different parts of His personality and nature and then put it in His sons, (i.e. this would include women or daughters.) So when the God part you have connects with the God part I have He is connecting Himself to Himself thus fulfilling the high priestly prayer of Christ in John Chapter 17, Father make them one even as we are one. So there are none outside the ONE. All those that the Father gave to Him He kept. So too He, the Lord Jesus Christ has kept each of us and has made us one with the Father.

          What a beautiful savior we have and what a glorious privilege it is to know Him and those that carry a part of Him inside their temple. These are the true riches of Christ, to love one another as He has loved us is greater than all of the prosperity of all the churches, denomination, religions, and ministries combined. The cost of Him giving that to us was in drops of blood and not “denominations” of mammon. Interesting that money has denominations as well. Just a thought.

          Kind regards,

          Todd

          • Son on February 20, 2019 at 5:12 pm

            Good stuff, Todd!



          • HoosierConservative on February 20, 2019 at 6:26 pm

            Amen!!



    • Jennifer NoneYa on April 11, 2019 at 12:05 pm

      You pretty much summarized everything I’ve noticed, and then some. The “pastor” who wrote this self righteous slop is obviously in desperation mode. The church, at least the version that he wants to push for, is indeed dying, he’s in denial about that. All one has to do is look at the demographics data and see that there are alot more grey hairs than younguns in the seats and that trend is not about to reverse any time soon. And its not just a matter of location, either. Congregations are stagnating and dying in better populated areas just as they are in rural small towns. I live in an urban sprawl with plenty of young people, highscool, college age, young families. But I look around at our church and even on the busiest of Sundays, well over 70 percent in attendance is 55 or much older. It is dying in the West because it is indeed an institution in which many degenerates hide themselves, and where these princes of the pulpit, as you say, come to craft a career that most often requires little to no education. They often gain the status of CEO immediately, as they are not required to work their way up the ladder to get what they want. And it shows. The message is always the same recycled themes, and none of them are inspiring. It feels like showing up to a banquet hall expecting a sumptuous feast (for that is what church touts itself to be, spiritual nourishment) only to be served up dry toast. Then there’s the tax exempt perk, lol. Its a unique business model, that’s for sure, but doesn’t seem very biblical, and to me, not at all Godly. Jesus didn’t earn a paycheck for his ministry. I’m sure I’ll catch Hell for this (yes, pun intended). I usually do, from some indoctrinated jerk who will tell me its MY problem, something *I* have to fix about myself. LoL. Sorry, but I’ve come to a different conclusion. But whatever. It needs to be said. One last thing you didn’t mention though…….this whole modern “come as you are” attitude (its a very trendy catchphrase where I live) really tweeks me. Its a marketing ploy to get people who show up to nice restaraunts in ripped jeans, sandals, and refusing to take their ball caps off, to see church as more relatable to them. Just another fall in standards, as you said. I realize not everyone has a suit and tie or fancy dress, but anyone can do a bit better than bermuda shorts and spaghetti straps!

    • SweetPeaMcD on April 13, 2019 at 11:14 am

      Hoosier,

      This…

      “I have a group of Spirit-filled friends who join me in fellowship all throughout the week. We have Bible study, prayer meetings, counseling, everything the church is supposed to be. We financially assist those in need. We support ministries we believe in. We witness to people and pray for healings and stimulate each other to good works. I’m not bragging or boasting, just being honest. We’re doing all of this with no church building to call home.“

      is the church.

      Blessings to you and your small body of believers who are doing exactly what the early Christians did!

      • pradeep ivon on November 19, 2019 at 6:51 am

        pls tell and advise me about it I want to start such group How to do it and start off
        as we are in India and population of christian is very tiny but the problems as described in this article are exactly same here also with the mainline churches. Actually people are scared .of being outcast from church organization which is also responsible for rituals of life such as weddings and esp death as one friend told me the church pastor refused to officiate the burial formalities as the deceased was not member of a church

  46. stung!!! on February 18, 2019 at 11:12 am

    because satans not so secret society Nazis Within The Order have infiltrated it with their satanic slaves and dumb down Christians

    • HoosierConservative on February 18, 2019 at 1:35 pm

      It does indeed seem like the barbarians crashed the gate. Church is mostly a big party with a vaguely inspirational message to entertain the hordes of carnal prosperity seekers. Then the responsible Christians are left to pay the tab. No thanks.

      • Son on February 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm

        Agree. The church leaders want to own it. They need more “sheeples” to grow the pot.

  47. stung!!! on February 18, 2019 at 11:11 am

    Did anyone else hear the Fifth trumpet of God Almighty sound when oil wells were lit ablaze during “Operation Desert Storm”?
    During the Gulf War when all the oil wells were lit ablaze I was attacked by a demon on three separate occasions all at night. This is what happened. While I slept a demon flew through my window and attack me. The spirit inside me fought this demon briefly until I awoke. Then it made me take over. I leaped out of bed trying to defend myself. This demon was horrid and spun circles around me thrashing through my soul with its hands, then it left as fast as it came. The demon radiated from the pains associated with the abyss. He was like a coal pulled from the fire, with the pains of the abyss Rev 9, 3. This attack happened on three separate occasions as I have stated. all on separate nights during the time frame when the oil wells had been lit ablaze in the Middle East. The third time it attacked me however was different from the rest. As before the demon attacked me, but this time I had enough since to command it to leave in the name of Jesus Christ. What happened next is even more amazing. After commanding this demon to leave in the name of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit delivered me outside my bedroom into the hallway. The demon followed. We were brought into the presence of the Lord. The Demon stood to my left and grabbing my hand, it placed its tail on top of my left hand. It was the sting of the scorpion and it went like this. It sent waves of fire through my soul Rev 9, 10. The pain was so sever that I couldn’t scream. Unconditionally, I looked straight up and said “Father please help me”. The demon then left.
    This all happened after being seduced into trying transcendental meditation, which caused spiritual bondage to witchcraft / demonic forces. Maybe the spiritual bondage occurred after playing a Ouija board or Tarot cards as a young boy. I’m not quite sure. They appeared at that time just to be games, and were sold in the kids section at stores or at least the Ouija board was. I had a lot of spiritual warfare after participating in these so called “games”. What I am sure of is that prior to being attacked by this demon, I was forced to go through the Illuminati’s esoteric initiation performed through altered states of consciousness / transcendental meditation assisted with witchcraft / demonic forces. Why I say demonic forces is that I believe all witchcraft to be the powers of demons / the Devil. I was forced to go through said esoteric initiation through methods including witchcraft, demonology, and subversive acts of terrorism. The methods of witchcraft included mind control / manipulation, heart palpitations, witchcraft dreams causing sleep depravation, powerful visions, and many other forms. In said ceremony I was instructed to except the worship of one of their many “demonic gods”. They informed me that in excepting one of there gods I accepted them all. One of there gods was the Devil, another they named Jesus, but they appeared to have a demon for every occasion. They informed me through methods of telepathy , that in accepting the worship of one, I accepted them all. What better way to join all religions of the world together under one banner of 666 spiritually enslaving society?
    David Spengler of the United Nations says that all people must go through a esoteric initiation and worship Lucifer to enter the New Age of Enlightenment. Helen Blavatsky calls it a Christ like consciousness, universal mind set. Benjamin Cream states that after said initiation all its members will be able to hear ancient wisdom spoken telepathically at the same moment by ascended Masters. I knew nothing of this group at that time or there Luciferian agenda of a One World Government. Take a guess what method is used for this initiation? I bet you know now. Have you heard of the New Age Movement, or its affiliation with “Free” Masonry? Do you know what a unholy baptism is or the term Kundalini.
    To the best of my knowledge this is the method Satan’s Secret Society uses to distribute the “spiritual mark of the beast”, and cause spiritual captivity Revelation 13, 10. Have you received your spiritual stamp of acceptance? If so, did you take it on the forehead becoming a spiritual slave of evil, or on the right hand a servant of the Devil himself? Does this sound hard to believe? Here are a few scriptures giving in sight. Revelation 13, 10, If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go . This is spiritual captivity to witchcraft / demonic forces. Naham 3, 4, who enslaved nations by her witchcraft. Revelation 18, 23, By your magic spell all nations were led astray. Hebrews 2:15 states by there fear of death they are held in bondage. Witchcraft / demonic powers are very real. Thank you Jesus for the Holy spirit and your Angels.
    There is a way out, but it has been difficult for me. Revelation 12, 11, Those who overcame, overcame by the blood of the lamb and the “word” of their testimony. They didn’t love their own lives so much as to shrink from death. Hebrews 2, 15, By their fear of death they are held in spiritual captivity / bondage. Satan’s “Secret” Society isn’t very secret anymore! It is like a giant octopus with many tentacles reaching far and wide.
    Here is the rest of the story. Three to four nights later the demon returned in the early am @ about 3am. He wasn’t alone, Satan / Apollyon and the demon’s twin brother was with him. They hovered in the air above the ground, before the olive tree in our back yard. I could see them as the spirit in me manifested them to me! Satan hovered in the middle while the demons were on either side of him. The demon on his left had been thrown into the lake of fire for what he did to me. He radiated like a coal pulled from the fire what seemed to be 15’x15′. He was lit up like a Christmas tree! Graciously yours baptized by fire the witness! Who will believe this testimony? God will be my witness! Located in California. Recommended information Fake truth Movement Exposed 1-12 on you tube. It has insight into who has received the spiritual stamp on there right hand.

    • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 19, 2019 at 1:03 pm

      Sorry, Nope nobody “heard” the “Fifth Trumpet” Of JUDGMENT Of God = it is still Yet Future, As God IS Not YET FINISHED
      With The “Current Age Of Amazing GRACE and MERCY, Until The Body Of CHRIST Is Taken Home To Heaven =

      THEN The JUDGMENT Of trumpets, bowls, and vials WILL Be Administered! Amen?

  48. Jeanne Bressler on February 16, 2019 at 12:44 am

    Our church sucks. Ego rules with the leaders as usual

    • Son on February 16, 2019 at 3:45 pm

      Turns out the pastor at the church we have been attending preaches “Prosperity Gospel.” Enrich “the church/pastor” at the expense of the sheeples/flock. Churches depend upon easily brainwashed sheeples to enrich them. If they build a huge church and few attend services, they become desperate and resort to bashing the few member of their congregation with “biblical requirements” of donating “tithes” and “offerings”, as though one can appease and please God through giving money. What a scam. God calls those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
      John 4:23
      “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
      God is not seeking to deprive us of our livelihood, although He tells us not to covet money and material possessions, Amen. We contribute to God with our word and our testimony and also His prompting in our hearts. If God prompts us to help our brethren, with money, with comfort, with companionship, with gospel, we should obey His prompting. That is what I believe is Truth.
      Thanks, Fessdo, for tipping me off on the church scam. We are saved ONLY BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. God bless you brother Fessdo, for emphasizing this fact to me. I believe that God has opened my eyes to great truth in this phase of my life here on Earth.
      An admonition to those who are susceptible to being victimized by “Prosperity Preachers”:
      Matthew 7:15
      “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
      If your preacher/pastor/priest told you that God wants you to jump off a cliff and leave your money to his church for you to be saved, would you jump to your death?
      God gave us common sense. Obey The Holy Spirit, not greedy, ravenous men who pose in sheep’s clothing for their own gain.
      Matthew 10:16
      “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

      God’s Peace and Blessing to my true brethren.

      Dave

      • Son on February 16, 2019 at 3:56 pm

        Another thing.
        John 10:27
        “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
        If, in your heart, you don’t recognize who is asking you to tithe, offer, donate your money as being the voice of our Lord Jesus, you are probably being scammed by mortal men. Jesus speaks to our hearts as our holy shepherd.
        And, never forget what our Lord told us regarding salvation and true faith, which is The Gift of God to us:
        Matthew 22:14
        “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
        The chosen few are saved only by The Blood of The Holy Lamb. Jesus Is The Lord! Amen.
        Thanks, brother Fessdo, for helping me with gaining this insight and awareness and thanks, Jesus, for my dear brother Fessdo.

        Dave

        Dave

        • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 17, 2019 at 2:17 pm

          Greetings, Grace And Peace In The Precious Name Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST.

          Discovered there is a “problem” at your “church” where you enjoy “fellowship” with other like-minded (SAVED By The Precious BLOOD Of God, According To The GRACE Of our ONLY SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST!) believers!?

          Now what do you do??:

          (1) the leaders are wrong, But STAY because you “ENJOY” fellowship with “other” members (not leaders)?
          a) And, KEEP “giving money,” because you love The LORD and do it For HIM, regardless of “how the leaders Misuse it?
          b) Stay, But STOP “giving money,” because you “enjoy fellowship,” And, Feel Guilty because you are now “disobedient” to the LORD you love?

          (2) STAY, because the leaders Are Wrong, BUT Can Be Corrected “From The Inside” + a) or b) above?

          (3) Question the leaders with your “concern,” and find out IF the have a BIBLICAL “solution” to the “problem!”
          a) IF “Solved” satisfactorily (2 Timothy 2:15!), then STAY
          b) IF UNsatisfactorily (UNclean!), THEN, loving your LORD, obey God Who Commands!:

          “Wherefore Come Out from among them, and be ye Separate, Saith The LORD, And touch not the unclean thing; and I Will Receive you, And Will Be A Father Unto you, and ye Shall Be MY sons and daughters, Saith The LORD Almighty!” (2 Corinthians 6 : 17!)?

          God Bless ALL Very RICHLY In HIS Preserved, Pure And HOLY Word (KJB!)

          brother Chris
          PS. IF you wish to hear my own “testimony” of LEAVING (with No regrets!) 29 years ago, let me know…

          • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 17, 2019 at 2:22 pm

            oops “imperfect” ERROR = IF THEY (leaders!) have a BIBLICAL “solution!”

            sorry! my bad 🙁

            bro Chris



          • Son on February 17, 2019 at 2:30 pm

            bro Chris, thanks for your considered and blessed advice regarding the church I have rejected. Certain events transpired that I interpreted, through His Charity and Grace unto me, to convict me that it was NOT God’s Will for me to attend that church anymore. This morning, I realized that I could never be friends with the pastor or church leaders because they see themselves as being better than I am, closer to God and more favored by God than I am, more knowledgeable and accomplished in their service to God than I am. How can one be friends with someone who thinks they are superior to you? You can’t. This is what God has pointed out to me.
            Of course, I would appreciate anything you would share with me about your experiences with church, His guidance to you, etc. I have much to learn.

            Peace, Grace and Blessing to you from His humble, unworthy, grateful servant,

            Dave



          • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 17, 2019 at 9:35 pm

            Grace And Peace, Dearest Brother (By HIS BLOOD!) Dave/Sister Jeanne. Appreciate your love for the LORD, this wonderful fellowship sharing with you, And your Great Desire to “Find Out,” In HIS Good Time! What God Has For you, Concerning what you are “clueless” about. Praying Hopefully, that what I can “help” with, will be Encouraging to ya’ll!

            Did you know? Praise God, we have ALL “Been Made ‘worthy’!”
            According To HIS Awesome SCRIPTURES! Amen?:

            “Giving thanks unto The Father, Which Hath Made us meet [ WORTHY! ] to
            be partakers of the inheritance of the saints In Light: Who Hath
            Delivered us From the power of darkness, and Hath Translated us Into The
            Kingdom Of HIS Dear SON: In WHOM we Have Redemption Through HIS BLOOD, Even The FORGIVENESS of sins!” Amen, And AMEN!

            (I would Also love {A Good story!} to hear/”listen” to your “personal
            testimony” of God’s GRACE/Salvation Upon Dave/Jeanne! IF you “wish!”),
            Now, a little about me:

            before LEAVING “churcheS” = grew up Roman catholic, Never receiving
            “spiritual help,” only knowing “religiously About” God, The Father, And
            HIS SON, JESUS, And The Holy Spirit, slowly tapered off going, until age
            27:

            THEN, Praise the LORD for my NEW “spiritual” BIRTH day! Amen?:
            I was alone at home (wife/kids “out” somewhere), reading the “filthy
            gossip” magazine, National Enquirer (Does God “Use the wicked” To Do HIS
            Will? you Betcha! remember “Pharaoh in Egypt”?):

            There was a FULL-PAGE Ad offering booklets on Heaven, Hell, And Home
            Life! And they were FREE, just call a 1-800 number! I was Always an avid
            “reader,” so i said, “self, why not? i can check these out, too, for FREE!” So, i
            called, and the kind lady took my order, AND then asked me this
            “shocking” question!:

            IF you DIED TONIGHT, are you Absolutely SURE you would go to heaven?

            Of course, the truthful answer was “No!” I “admitted I WAS a SINNER!” She shared JESUS CHRIST, HIS Death, BLOOD, And Resurrection for Forgiveness of my sin, And ETERNAL Life With HIM! Then, because I did NOT “know” what to pray, she “helped” me, right on the phone! IMMEDIATELY I “knew” in my heart and soul, “something WAS Different!”##

            (“Critics/liars COMPLAIN = NO ONE can “pray” and be saved, But I “know” of at LEAST TWO who have = the “humble” publican in Luke 18:13! and me! he was “Saved” AFTER “praying God, Be Merciful To me, a sinner,” By God’s Own Words: “went down to his house JUSTIFIED!” AND i “Was JUSTIFIED By God” Before “hanging up the phone!!!” {Of course, i “prayed” what I Already “believed” IN “my heart!” (Romans 10:10-11! NO “shame!”} Amen, and AMEN!!

            Praise HIM For Ever And EVER! Now, “churcheS” i went to as a NEW-Born
            “babe In CHRIST!”

            While on vacation, “sharing” good news, a “relative-out-Law” suggested
            for me to talk to her “minister” – this was church of christ, they
            showed me a few of “their verses,” and i said ok, i “should obey and be
            water baptized, As a “babe,” not “knowing” at THAT TIME it was for “regeneration immersion,” they “tried” to “push” me to do it IMMEDIATELY, but i said nah, Next Sunday is fine 🙂 Got “dunked,” after my “baby” declaration of “being glad i was on the ‘winning’ side.” (LITTLE did I “know” what i would “know LATER!” But, vacation was over, and, Never went back!

            Later, back home, attended a “reformed” group, and left due to
            NON-Scriptural (they Even ADMITTED this, saying it was THEIR “tradition” of) “infant sprinkling.” {And all the while, as a “Very hungry baby,” i devoured ALL the “sermonized” literature I received, listened to the radio, And watched “religious” TV! = Did “learn” a LOT! [But, Most of it was “Confusing!”] }

            Next, (“Growing In GRACE!) in IFB (to be fair, they do preach The Gospel Of GRACE!), which, they teach, one can “join membership” by NON-regeneration “obedience of immersion in water,” (their “denominational tradition”?), And After going THREE times a week, and driving a bus for kids, singing in the choir, etc. etc, after 8 years, “left” because of the following TWO “studies”:

            (1) supposed “Bible study” By mail, with of all people, AGAIN, the church
            of Christ, the mean and angry “teacher,” calling me names and stuff,
            But he did “ask” ONE thought-for-food provoking/pointed question:
            “How come YOU BAPTISTS teach TWO baptismS when Paul says “There is Only ONE!” (Ephesians 4:5!). had to STOP AND THINK about that one…

            (2a) Found some “Bible? study” material, while serving/helping the last IFB church i attended – i was helping the “associate” pastor with Saturday night bulletins for the “next day.” I decided to “browse” the pastor’s library and chose THREE books that seemed like they “Might Be worthwhile to READ/study/be fed?” Anyways, when we showed up for Sunday worship, i “fessed up” what i had “borrowed,” and the pastor informed me that he “did Not LOAN out his books!” (later found out “some were ‘Poison!'”) WHEW!

            (2b) Oh, ok, NOW i know (don’t “borrow poison,”) but I was already reading the “Healthy medicinal” study “Baptism And The BIBLE! (CR Stam),” about “baptism being an “Identification!'” I had to “know” MORE, so now WHAT? I loved The LORD, and asked HIM to help me “understand” this NEW Information I had NEVER heard before! So, I skipped Sunday night, skipped Again Wednesday night, and FINISHED reading/making NOTES Of ALL The Scriptures About This “IDENTIFICATION!” Next Sunday, went to “church” returning his “precious poisonous” {p.p. :)} books to the pastor.

            (2c) Now what? I prayed for a couple of weeks, reviewing/thinking/considering These Scriptures That I had Never Considered Before, In “God’s Context,” About ONE “Spiritual Baptism!” So, now with a question, I went to see the pastor. He said “he appreciated” that I came to him with my question
            about: Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1
            Corinthians 12:13!:

            “Are ALL Of These about God’s ONE Baptism For us, Today, Under GRACE, In A “Spiritual Context”? His “answer” was “YES, they Are “Spiritual,”…

            …BUT, (then he “Added”): “we have to ‘remember water’ baptism.” (we do?)
            So, then i went home, still wondering/contemplating/mulling ALL this
            “experience” over in my mind, asking the LORD’s “HELP!” Please…

            (2d) So, a couple of more weeks go by, and I finally “made a simple ‘math’ decision.” (i believe i am “fairly good at math, And “common sense!” Amen?) How is TWO “baptismS,” water baptism PLUS Holy Spirit Baptism EQUAL TO: “ONE Baptism!” So, I went on With my “journey” With God And HIS Word Above “ALL Else!” And, “left” the IFB “church.” {Embarking into a NEW “Encouraging journey” With 2 Timothy 2:15! “Changing” ALL my “Confusion/seeming Contradictions” Into HIS Wonderful “Light!!”}
            {is this a “MINOR” Issue?}…

            (Please “be advised” the “baptist” people {“good fellowship!”} DID love us Very Much, bringing food and helping us when {my second} wife was having an hysterectomy and our “BEAUTIFUL-Angel-of-a-blind” daughter was taken “Cesarean!” Thank God! – That was 29 years ago!):

            …continuing With “leaving church” About “God’s MAJOR Doctrine!”:
            A couple of weeks later, the pastor and a couple of others came by, “concerned” we were not “attending” any more. I explained my “decision,” And (here comes “poison”) he explains: “Well, in OUR “fellowship group {baptist!},” we DO NOT “AGREE” with the man whose “book” you studied!
            After “considering his statement” I thought “that might not be a very good {foolish?} STATEMENT to make,” because I Already “knew” That, “According To The Pure, Preserved, And HOLY Scriptures (KJB!):”

            “JESUS Came To HIS OWN (With Truth!), And they RECEIVED HIM NOT!” (John 1:11!) And we BOTH know “what THEY DID To HIM! Right bro/sis Dave/Jeanne?

            ## “What” was “Different”? After “studying” The Scriptures (I was “taught” From The Beginning, to STAY With, Above ALL Else!), I Found out I HAD:

            “…The PEACE Of God, Which Passeth all understanding, Shall Keep your hearts and minds Through CHRIST JESUS!” (Philippians 4:7!)
            {And, THAT “PEACE” has been ONE “Constant!” among Many “changes” in my life for 40 Years!} Praise HIM For Ever And EVER!!!

            {BLOOD!} Brother/Sister: Thanks So Much For Being Marvelous “listeners!”
            Dave/Jeanne, May God RICHLY Bless you as you “embark” on your Wonderful Journey With HIM!

            bro Chris



          • Son on February 18, 2019 at 1:25 pm

            Grace, Peace and Blessing from our Lord and Savior Jesus unto you, bro Chris. Thank you for sharing your testimony with Jeanne and me. Here is one of my favorite scriptures:
            1 Corinthians 8:2
            “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
            I am thankful for The Charity, Mercy and Grace our Lord Jesus showed unto me in filling me with His Holy Spirit and thereby saving my soul for eternity. I realize I had nothing to do with my salvation but to ask Him earnestly, from the depths of my heart and soul, to please help me believe He is the Lord and He did that. Jesus did it all for me and you and Jeanne and everyone who can say, “Jesus Is The Lord”.
            Jesus and only Jesus completed the work necessary for our salvation unto eternal life in His Kingdom. Take anyone you like for an example, but if they are mortal men, such as we are, they don’t have
            “all the answers”. Many church leaders pose as if they know everything and are never wrong. These church leaders feel they need to own it, have complete authority and control over their “flock”. So, back to the subject of this blog, “Why people are turning away from church”, that is my reason. If Jesus reveals a truth to me, in His Holy Spirit, I listen and believe what He tells me. When mortal men tell me I’m wrong and Jesus has told me what they think is “wrong”, I reject the counsel of those mortal men, not the truth that Jesus has given to me. I admit that, in the grand scheme of life on earth and afterwards, I know nothing except that Jesus Is The Lord. As far as I’m concerned, everything else is strictly speculation on our part. As His Spirit prompts me, I share what He tells me with others, some believers in Him, some not. I no longer try to beat a non-believer over the head with a bible, for “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”, as my daddy used to say. I am just waiting on Jesus.
            I don’t need stumbling blocks in my life. That is why I am leaving church.

            Stay blessed, bro Chris. Thanks for your fellowship. Please feel free to share fellowship anytime, my brother.!

            Dave



          • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:19 am

            Very well put. Thank God we have people like you that sees the problem and informs others. Thank you for being a voice in the wilderness.



  49. Obscra on February 15, 2019 at 8:14 am

    Jesus says you can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. What fruit has the Christian church been producing? Bigotry? Hate? Do they use their funds to help those in need? Do you remember Jesus’s advice to the rich man? He told him that to follow him he must sell all of his wealth and donate that money to the poor. The problem is many churches are not lead by the word of God, but by malignant narcissists who do not even believe.

  50. Krisu on February 14, 2019 at 4:24 am

    “I completely understand why a growing number of people are bailing on church.”

    No, you don’t understand. As witnessed by many comments.

    The Heavenly Church by Christ is in Heaven. It may have nothing to do with these social gatherings called churches.

    The mundane churches are made by men, for men, not by God or for God.

    The abuse that’s been going on in churches is not from God, but from Satan. So every church that keeps on abusing its members is doing the will of Satan. That “men are imperfect” is no excuse.

    • Jeanne Bressler on February 14, 2019 at 7:41 pm

      Wow, that’s a tough subject, Krisu. “The Church” conducted The Spanish Inquisition and also The Crusades, similar to the Jihad campaign conducted by Islam. Yes, that subject needs examination, for sure.
      Jeanne

      • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 17, 2019 at 2:32 pm

        Dear Jeanne. Disagree, The “CHURCH, The Body Of CHRIST, Whose “members” Have Been Washed In The Precious BLOOD Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST,’ did no such Atrocity. The ROMAN “church,”
        believing they were serving God, DID DO SO, BUT JESUS Said:

        “Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service!
        And these things will they do unto you, because they have NOT KNOWN THE FATHER, NOR ME!”
        (John 16;2-3 KJB!)

        Be well!

        bro Chris

      • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:26 am

        Let us go to the depths and ask this question. Is God the Father a Christian?

        • Son on February 20, 2019 at 12:19 pm

          Unfortunately, my wife Jeanne is neither qualified nor interested in pursuing her involvement on this thread. I tried to recruit my friend and brother Fessdo to engage her to participate, but that did not bear any fruit.
          Speaking for myself, Todd, what a strange question you have asked! God The Father raised Christ from the dead.
          Can you give God The Father a moniker such as “Christian”? With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I would ask you (hope you can laugh at this), was Haile Selassie a Rastafarian?

          Peace to you, bro

          Dave

          • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:57 pm

            That did bring a smile to my face. The point of the question was to raise the subject of how we categorize and label people, and yes even God. We see this in politics which unfortunately is a mirror image of the church system. Religion and politics brothers in arms from the beginning of both institutions.

            This is my real point on this. I believe that everything comes down to identity. To know Him, His identity. To know self, identity. To discern both good and evil, indentity. It’s
            inescapeable. It is a question that we should all ask of ourselves. Who are you? What label are you willling to accept as being an identifier as to just who you are? What indoctrinated glasses skew your view of who He really is? That is my greatest fear. He came to His own and His own received Him not. The guys that knew the Hebrew and study continually about the coming Messiah did not know that He was walking in their modest. Why, because of your tradition you made Christ who is THE WORD of God of no effect. Most of us on this blog have come from a religious background and we carry that indoctrination inside of us. Being able to die to that is a tough thing to do. So the question while rehrorical is meant to provoke these thoughts about how we define people and God by our particular language of thought when evaluating indentities.

            Sorry if there are spelling errors I any of my repsonsss but it is late and I am too tired to use spell check. Thank God you all will forgive my as the Father would do.

            Ciao



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 1:33 am

            The world knew Him not, but what can be more perfectly descriptive of our Lord and Savior Jesus than the prophecy of Isaiah?
            ISAIAH 53
            “Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
            “For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

            All blessing, honor, glory and power to our precious Lord and Savior Jesus!

            God bless you, brother Todd.

            Dave



  51. Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 12, 2019 at 8:54 pm

    Grace And Peace, Dave. Concerning “Now, more than ever, the world needs Christian working together humbly under Christ to lead people into a growing relationship with him, in whatever innovate and fresh forms that takes. The church is not dead.” Do we “agree”?:

    The Church, as a whole, is spiritually weak/Severely Divided. I highly “doubt” that this will be soon “Corrected” with “innovative and fresh forms.” How about “Old-fashioned” obedience
    to God’s HOLY Word, Especially “recognizing” the “UNIQUE” apostleship of Paul (whom
    God “CHOSE” to be the “administrator” of GRACE! { similar to Moses, prophets, And HIS Twelve “chosen” to “administer” The LAW? } Amen?

    Question about what, imho, is THE MAIN “Divider” of “denominations!:

    Does God REQUIRE “water” baptism, Today, Under GRACE? (this is “my reason” for “leaving” ALL of the “MainSTREAM” watered-down gospel denominations. Was this Valid?)

    Just find the “church of you choice,” like it, ask to “join in membership,” and what happens?:
    They ask you: Have you been {water} baptized (“according to our particular “”tradition”””)?
    (“problem”? Is it “SINGLE” immersion in the “Name of JESUS,” or Is it TRIPLE immersion in the “Name of the Father, Son, And Holy Ghost”? does “Anybody SEE” Any “Problem”???)

    Now, IF you “haven’t” done it “right (THEIR way!), let’s have a DO OVER! Is That Scriptural???

    How about this: Is Not our “fellowship with ONE Another” BASED On our “Mutual faith!* In our LORD And Saviour, JESUS CHRIST? Rather than UNScriptural “traditions”???

    Is God’s “Answer” then, “NO!” water is NOT required? As, According To SCRIPTURE, There Is Only ONE Baptism, Under GRACE! (Ephesians 4 : 5; Colossians 2 : 12; Galatians 3 : 27; Romans 6 : 3-4; 1 Corinthians 12 : 13!)

    Or, maybe i am just an “heretic”?

    Just askin’…

    • Son on February 12, 2019 at 11:58 pm

      bro Chris,
      I don’t have any answers to your questions. I just know that somehow, someway, Jesus keeps me attached to His Holy Spirit, and I am completely thankful and humble concerning that. He keeps me hanging on, with all of the confusion and noise that surrounds our faith, His Gift to us.
      Hebrews 13:5
      ” Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”
      I pray that you and all of my brethren in Him will stay connected, through His Grace and Mercy toward us.
      The enemy is trying hard to separate us from one another and only God can give us the inspiration and strength to resist and stay strong in our faith and hope.
      I don’t have all the answers, bro. Only God has the answers and I wait on Him to reveal them to me.
      In the meantime, I pray every night, “Maranatha, dear Lord Jesus. Come back soon, Lord, tonight if it might be your Will. Rapture us into the air and bring us to your kingdom of Heaven to spend all of eternity worshipping, serving, obeying, blessing and glorifying you and our Holy Father and to live in peace, harmony, bliss and ecstasy with the holy angels and our beloved brethren in your chosen flock.”
      Believe on Jesus, bro and be saved upon the faith He gives you. Observe not the customs of men, but serve God through His Holy Word, Jesus. That’s really about all I can tell you. I am saves because Jesus told me and tells me that I am. I am as clueless as you, other than The Grace of Jesus.

      Peace to you, bro. Feel free to share fellowship and communion with me anytime. There are other blessed brethren on this forum, such as Fessdo, Stu and Abraham, if you seek fellowship and, perhaps, guidance. I’m sure they would respond to your reaching out to them.

      In the spirit of our only Lord, Savior and blessed God Jesus.

      Dave

      • Son on February 13, 2019 at 11:27 am

        Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
        Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
        Romans 9:15
        “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
        What do YOU believe? Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? Can you say, “Jesus Is The Lord”?
        1 Corinthians 12:3
        “Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”
        You won’t be saved by the customs of men. Only God can save you, and that’s only if He chooses to do so. Your only guarantee is the blood and the promise of Jesus.

        Dave

      • Jeanne Bressler on February 14, 2019 at 7:37 pm

        Fessdo, I want you to give me your guidance as you do for my husband, “Son”, also known to you as Dave. My husband had spoken very highly of you as an agent of Jesus.
        Thank you for considering me in your spiritual insights.
        Jeanne

        • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 15, 2019 at 11:31 am

          Grace And Peace, my dearest brother Dave. Thank you for your warm welcome, kind, and “truthful” response. (“I don’t have answers to your questions.”) Seems as if some on this thread are having a Great Fellowship with each other! That is Very Encouraging Indeed, as I believe That Is What CHRIST, The ONE HEAD Of HIS Heavenly Church, Desires for ALL of HIS “members!” (still on this earth). Amen?

          For “Being CONNECTED To God,” And to “each other,” Hebrews 13:5 Is Really Good – And, I Also always go by These Wonderful Scriptures!:

          (1) We (ALL “Saved” members) Were “Identified With” (Baptized Into) The Heavenly Body Of CHRIST, Upon God Giving us our New Birth, By HIS Amazing GRACE! (Ephesians 2:8-9, 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13!) Amen?

          (2) That ONE (Holy) Spirit That “ID’d” us (“BY” ONE Baptism {above}), Also Took Up Residence in us ALL! (1 Corinthians 3 : 16, 6 : 19) Thus, Does The Holy Spirit “keep us Connected” To CHRIST? Amen, bro?

          (3) “God Is Faithful, by WHOM ye Were Called Unto The Fellowship Of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST our LORD!” (1 Corinthians 1 : 9!)

          Brother Dave, appreciate you, and Also looking forward to “joining” in fellowship with you And the other brothers Fessdo, Stu, and Abraham. “Possibly” our “discussions” in Scriptures Will Hopefully Help us ALL to “see” where we “Disagree” and Then, Help us to Obey God In This:

          “Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment!” (1 Corinthians 1 : 10 cp Ephesians 4:3-6!)

          bro Chris

          PS. I see sister Jeanne, your wife, has Also “joined in this fellowship” seeking guidance. Now this is Even More VERY Encouraging. If I may “suggest,” IF my “name” is “highlighted” above this “reply” you can Both go to my “youtube Discussion” page where I have a “few BIBLE studies.” Let me know “what you think.”

        • Son on February 15, 2019 at 2:23 pm

          bro Chris, I tried to access your presentation on YouTube, but all I could find was “Grace Ambassadors”. Is that you?

          Dave

        • fessdo on February 15, 2019 at 7:02 pm

          Jeanne,
          Please understand my answer here,
          1 Peter 3:4-6 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
          In the same spirit you married women should adapt yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they do not obey the Word of God they may be won to God without any word being spoken, simply by seeing the pure and reverent behaviour of you, their wives. Your beauty should not be dependent on an elaborate coiffure, or on the wearing of jewellery or fine clothes, but on the inner personality—the unfading loveliness of a calm and gentle spirit, a thing very precious in the eyes of God. This was the secret of the beauty of the holy women of ancient times who trusted in God and were submissive to their husbands. Sara, you will remember, obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. And you have become, as it were, her true descendants today as long as you too live good lives and do not give way to hysterical fears.

          Dave is really your lord and a greater teacher than me, for I’m really just a sinful country boy and blue collar worker that just loves Jesus a whole bunch.
          Fessdo

          • Son on February 16, 2019 at 12:14 am

            Amen, brother Fessdo.
            You are such a learned, blessed teacher!
            I thank God for your brotherhood and fellowship!

            Your bro in Jesus.

            Dave



          • Jeanne Bressler on February 16, 2019 at 12:34 am

            Hey man? I am a girl and my guy likes me to dress in clothing other than blue jeans. God made me to make Dave appreciate the beauty of color and good taste. So I am a ballerina to my dear Dave!

            I hate to wear pants!

            Jeanne



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 11:56 am

            Thanks, brother Todd, for taking time to share your thoughts on the nature/essence of Jesus and our relationship with Him. It’s uncanny how much you sound like my ole pal Fessdo! ; )
            I’m curious about your take on this subject. I don’t think people who are “gay” can help themselves. I believe it is a pre-programming of their genes/dna that causes them to be attracted to the same sex. I also believe that same mechanism applies to serial killers. A serial killer feels some compulsion to do what they do because of their chromosomal makeup. What do you think Jesus would say about how those people can control these basic, programmed-by-their-dna compulsions?

            I am heterosexual, so don’t worry about that. I am referring specifically to something I read and thought about recently.
            ROMANS 1:27
            ““And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

            Does a homosexual person have any right to enter The Kingdom of God?

            TIA for your take on this.

            Dave



          • fessdo on May 13, 2019 at 7:14 pm

            Jeanne,
            Titus 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
            2 You, however, must tell everyone how to live in a way that agrees with the true teaching. 2 Teach the older men to have self-control, to be serious, and to be wise. They must be strong in faith, in love, and in patience.
            3 Also, teach the older women to live the way those who serve the Lord should live. They should not go around saying bad things about others or be in the habit of drinking too much. They should teach what is good. 4 By doing this they will teach the younger women to love their husbands and children. 5 They will teach them to be wise and pure, to take care of their homes, to be kind, and to be willing to serve their husbands. Then no one will be able to criticize the teaching God gave us.
            Dave is a great man of God Jeanne, You’re a lucky gal.



          • son on May 13, 2019 at 9:16 pm

            Dearest brother Fessdo, Jeanne is not real, real spiritual, by nature, although I know she loves Jesus and belongs to Him through baptism of His Holy Spirit, so she doesn’t embrace this thread as I wish she would. Thank you, brother, for your kind exhortations and wise advice to her, which I shall share with her, representing your voice as best I can. I am but a humble, grateful servant, no, slave of Jesus. I deserve no special accolade I am hardly worthy of His Grace..
            I can NEVER repay Jesus for what He did for me, for us. Like you, I live to bring Him honor and glory.
            All Blessing, Honor, Glory and Power unto THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!
            Amen.
            May He continue to bless you greatly, dear brother Fessdo! Health, blessing, peace and abundant life in His Holy Spirit unto you, my esteemed brother. 🙂

            Dave



      • Todd on February 21, 2019 at 10:48 am

        Here is your answer.

        16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s. 18 Let no man rob you of your prize [a]by a voluntary humility and [b]worshipping of the angels, [c]dwelling in the things which he hath [d]seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increaseth with the increase of God.

        20 If ye died with Christ from the [e]rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch 22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any [f]value against the indulgence of the flesh.

        People have struggled with these types of issue for a long time. Me, I’m just a backward country boy from Texas, but when I started on this path 18 years ago after being in the system, and I mean in the system for 36 years, these types of conflicts faded away. A new creation began in Him. I suddenly realized that freedom was not my ability to do whatever I wanted but rather the absolute joy in knowing that Christ would to do all things through me. If we were to just allow Him to be who He is in all that we do, it would set us free from these carnal minds and fleshly bodies.

        I do not give a you know what about the impediments that people put upon us that are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Who are they to trick us into going back to the rules and ordinances of men and not those of God? Once again, I humbly tell you that I am no one special but I do know that everything in our lives as it pertains to salvation and holiness can be summed up in these two things, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, you love your neighbor as yourself. In these two things are all the law and the prophets fulfilled. The first is toward heaven the second is the witness on the earth. Anything more than that becomes a lesson in futility because everyone can argue concerning rituals and ceremonies but no one can argue with LOVE i.e. CHRIST because that is who He is. He is the eternal and ultimate manifestation of love. If you traveled 1000 light years into space you will find a footprint of where He has already been which means love has already been there. Keep going on and on and on no matter how far no matter what galaxy it is you will find that His love has already been there. It is love that keeps the universe in order. It is love that causes the sun to rise. It is love that sent an innocent lamb to a lonely hill called Golgotha to bleed out His life so that He could expressed His love to you.

        This is how I read 1 Corinthians 13:13

        1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have Christ, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have Christ, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have Christ, it profits me nothing.

        4 Christ is patient, Christ is kind and is not jealous; Christ does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

        8 Christ never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is Christ.

        I hope that you see it. Christ is LOVE and Love is CHRIST. When I read this no it takes on a whole new meaning for me. Notice when we are in Him and only Him can we becomes love because that is who He is. Face to face or Love to Love is the greatest of all commandments and those two are the fulfillment of all. People see love as an emotion or some abstract idea of good. NO! Christ is literally the manifested of love and the very its essence of its existence.

        So, if you’re a heretic so am I. That may surely be man’s interpretation of us. But God! Oh yes, we are in a love relationship with Him and that is what drives them nuts because they cannot control us with their church, denomination, religion, rituals, ceremonies, or their infantile understanding and interpretations of scripture.

        We might well be nuts but we are screwed to the right bolt. So rejoice in the freedom that Christ has given to you but make certain that your dwelling place is in Him else you lose that freedom. Anyone or anything that puts any belief or law above CHRIST/LOVE is to be discarded and put on Paul’s dung heap. So take out the trash my brother and live in Him.

        Todd

    • fessdo on February 13, 2019 at 11:04 am

      Chris,
      Answer my questions and I’ll answer yours.
      If a person has no baptism is he doomed to hell?
      If a person has one baptism is he doomed to hell?
      If a person has two baptism is he doomed to hell?
      If a person has three baptism is he doomed to hell?

      • Son on February 13, 2019 at 11:05 pm

        My dear, beloved brother Fessdo,
        You have convinced me. We are saved by only one thing: the blood of Jesus.
        He did it all for us.
        Blessing, honor, glory and power to our Lord Jesus.
        JESUS IS THE LORD.

        Thank you, dear brother Fessdo for your faith and exhortation in HIM. He has completed our salvation, PRAISE JESUS!

        Dave

        • fessdo on February 13, 2019 at 11:21 pm

          Dave,
          “He (Jesus) has completed our salvation”,,,
          You are so right Dave and knowing that truth means no one will ever be able to take that away from you ever.
          John 8:36 King James Version (KJV)
          If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

          Praise God,
          Fessdo

          • Son on February 14, 2019 at 11:11 am

            Amen, brother Fessdo!

            Dave



        • Todd on February 21, 2019 at 12:08 pm

          Dave, I will be more than happy to engage you in this conversation. Your message with regards to the question about homosexuals did not leave me a rely to click on so I am responding to this post in order to talk with you about this.

          As you well know we are all on different stations on the path and I do not want to offend someone who is a young one in the things of God. I do not want to cause anyone, but especially someone that is a babe in Christ to fall because of something that I said. These types of subjects are to be handle with care and the fear of the Lord. Now automatically people will think I am opposed to the gay lifestyle but let me say that my apprehension to broach this subject is not about offending just gay people but also those that are young in the Lord and believe that being gay is not okay. No matter which side of the fence you are on I do not want to offend either.

          For a further discussion on this subject please contact me at my personal email, zion3d@hotmail.com

          Kind regards as always,

          Todd

      • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 15, 2019 at 11:19 am

        Grace And Peace, my Dear Brother Fessdo. “Answer my questions and I’ll answer yours.” OK, fair enough:

        “If a person has NO baptism is he doomed to hell?” According To Holy Scriptures, Yes!

        “If a person has ONE baptism is he doomed to hell?” Depends, According To Holy Scriptures, “Could” be Yes OR No!

        “If a person has two baptismS is he doomed to hell?” Depends, According To Holy Scriptures, “Could” be Yes OR No!

        “If a person has three baptismS is he doomed to hell?” Depends, According To Holy Scriptures, “Could” be Yes OR No!

        Fessdo, be blessed – looking forward to Great Scriptural “discussion” with you!

        bro Chris

        MISSION: To Exalt The LORD JESUS CHRIST by proclaiming ALL The Counsel Of God, to “make ALL see What Is The Fellowship Of The Mystery!” (Ephesians 3 : 9!) Amen?

        • Son on February 15, 2019 at 1:48 pm

          bro Chris, I found the following commentary regarding baptism and I thought it might be of interest to you in shedding light on the subject.

          Do I have to be baptized to go to heaven – The Criminal
          The other story is found in the account of Jesus on the cross and it is the story of one of the malefactors who hung beside Jesus. One of the malefactors railed against Jesus but the other had a change of heart. “But the other criminal rebuked him. ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise’” (Luke 23:40-43). Notice that Jesus does not say you will be with me after you are baptized. Rather there was affirmation of the thought “absent in the body and present with the LORD” (2 Corinthians 5:8).
          Do I have to be baptized to go to heaven – The Conclusion
          Baptism is a rite of identification and not salvation and therefore is not a requirement for entrance into heaven. What then is the requirement for entrance into heaven? The story of the malefactor will give us the answer. This man recognized that he was where he was because of his own actions and he repents and asks for grace. The grace of the cross is what instantly transformed a reviling sinner into one with the attitude of confession and saving faith. That faith is what saves and gives the sinner entrance into eternal life through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ three days later.

          The repentant thief began to see that his own punishment was just, he also saw the sinless character of Christ and he recognized that only Christ was able to save him. The thief was saved because of his trust in God’s grace through Christ. In like manner, the sinner today must recognize that God’s judgment of us is just and that we cannot save ourselves and we then choose to receive the gift of grace that God has made possible through the LORD Jesus Christ and that is the only requirement for salvation and for entrance into eternal life in heaven. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). If baptism were necessary it would be “works” and we cannot add our works to His grace.

          With His Love, bro Chris.

          Dave

        • fessdo on February 15, 2019 at 7:18 pm

          Chris,
          You have great knowledge on the law but you lack on the grace of God and the mercy of Jesus.
          Your law would leave out the invalid person and Jesus didn’t leave out anyone who would receive Him.

          Fessdo

          • Son on February 16, 2019 at 12:17 am

            Amen, brother Fessdo. I am so grateful to God that you are part of our fellowship on this forum!

            With much love and respect for you, my brother. We learn from your words inspired by His Holy Spirit!

            Dave



          • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 16, 2019 at 4:22 pm

            Grace And Peace From The LORD And Saviour, JESUS CHRIST!

            Fessdo, ? Please “elaborate” on my “Great knowledge of The LAW.”
            i “probably” have “barely SCRATCHED the surface” in my “studies.”

            my “expertise,” IF i am “gaining” Any, after meeting The LORD JESUS, And receiving God’s GRACE And Mercy (as as UNdeserving SINNER!), And HIS Establishing An ETERNAL “Relationship” With HIMSELF!, is More Likely “Geared” To studying/understanding/comprehending This!:

            Romans Through Philemon = God’s GRACE / Love Letters “Directly” TO us Today FOR: Consolation, Comfort, Edification, Enjoyment, Encouragement, And spiritual Building Up Of ALL the “members’ ( saints! ) In The Body Of CHRIST!, HIS Church, Seated In HEAVEN!

            + To “make ALL see what is The Fellowship Of The MYSTERY!”
            (Ephesians 3:9!)

            And this, As God Has Commanded us in 2 Timothy 2:15!, is “To Be RIGHTLY DIVIDED!” From:

            {NOT “mine,” But:}
            God’s “LAW” Scriptures! Is Not this “exactly” where Most of the “professing” church is “throughly Confused”? “MIXING Up Law WITH GRACE!”? Of which confusion “God is NOT the author!” (1 Corinthians 14:33!)

            surely we BOTH “agree” on this, at least? Amen?:

            {looks as IF we are now “sidetracked” from our discussion of “0-3 baptismS vs condemnation,” eh?}

            “Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment!” (1 Corinthians 1 : 10 cp Ephesians 4:3-6!)

            Thanks again, Fessdo. be BLESSED!

            brother Chris



        • Nate on February 17, 2019 at 11:59 am

          Wow. You can’t be saved if you haven’t been baptized? I know that baptism is an important part of our lives when we are saved but what happens: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”? Has this scripture become null and void because you haven’t been baptized?

          What happens if you make your confession with your heart and something happens and suddenly your life is over before you can get baptized? Will Christ say depart from me I never knew you because you were never baptized even though you received Me as your Lord and Saviour?

          What, as some have already mentioned, about the thief on the cross? Why didn’t Christ bring him down so he could get baptized, put him back up there before telling him that he will be with Him in Paradise on the same day? Or say to him “…today you will be with me in Paradise” But first, you must be baptized?’ I know it sounds a little far-fetched but it’s still a question.

          I am not disregarding the importance of baptism or scripture, Lord forbid. I am aware that Mark 16:16 says “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” But if you look at the scripture Jesus did not say but he that believeth and is “not baptized”will be damned.

          My question is what about the thousands, maybe millions of people the world over every year that passed and pass away. If they make Deathbed confessions and can’t get baptized what will happen to them? Will Christ say ‘depart from me I never knew you because you were not baptized?’ Or will He say something such as ‘enter into My rest because you have believed on My Name with all of your heart?’

          I remember years ago, in the 70s or early 80s, when my uncle, who was a minister, told me one day he was talking with someone and asked him ‘what if a person confesses Christ and is not baptized baptized is he going to hell?’ He said the man said ‘yes he is.’

          My uncle then said to him ‘what if, for whatever reason, they can’t get to any water whatsoever then lose their life before they can be baptized?’ He replied “I didn’t think about that.” I never forgot that conversation. Now I know you may say well he didn’t have to get baptized right away. But the question that my uncle posed was just to get the guy thinking about it.

          My father was a minister and I was baptized when I was around 11 years old in his church. About 16 years later I was baptized again because I was attending a different church regularly. I don’t think I had confessed Christ at that time but I figured if you’re attending church on a regular basis that you’re supposed to get baptized. I made a full confession in 1984 but wasn’t baptized because I had already been baptized twice.

          In 2002 I rededicated my life to Christ and decided for the third time to get baptized not because of the comments made about being baptized one, two or three times but because I had a much better understanding of Christ and the scriptures than the previous two baptisms. Thanks for reading. These are just some thoughts or my perspective.

          God bless you all.

          • Son on February 17, 2019 at 1:12 pm

            Brother Nate, thanks for sharing with regard to the subject of the necessity of baptism to obtain salvation..
            1 Timothy 2:4-6
            “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
            For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
            Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
            Then, there is the question I have always pondered about people who can say they believe in Jesus, but have not received/been baptized by His Holy Spirit. I’m fairly sure you know people like that.
            So, are those people saved who confess Jesus as their savior but have not received His Holy Spirit?
            John 3:16
            “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
            If we take that scripture at face value, it would appear to me as though ALL who “believeth in him (Jesus) should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Nowhere is it written, “believeth in him AND ARE BAPTIZED”.
            We can argue until Jesus returns about whether baptism is necessary for salvation.
            There are also these bible verses to consider:
            Acts 2:38
            “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
            That verse, taken at face value, would indicate that people are first baptized by water and then baptized by The Holy Spirit AFTERWARDS.
            John 3:5
            “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
            That sounds to me as though one needs to be baptized by water as well as The Holy Spirit to be saved.
            Mark 16:16
            “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
            This is rather confusing, in my own mind, because on one hand, we are instructed that both believing AND baptism are necessary for salvation, but baptism without believing will lead to damnation.
            In my own case, Jesus filled me, a Jew from birth, with His Holy Spirit in a manner similar to the description of the manner in which God’s Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus.
            Luke 3:21-22
            “Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
            I had gotten down on my knees, in front of 5 or 6 disciples who had exhorted me to ask Jesus to come into my life and save me, and begged Jesus to help me believe in Him. That was when He filled me with His Holy Spirit and indeed, it felt to me like His Spirit descended upon me like a dove and filled me up with a warmth and peace so that I instantly knew it was Jesus who had entered into me and secure=d my faith in Him. Before I could say a word, all of the disciples in the room began praising and thanking God, saying, “Thanks, Jesus, for saving our brother Dave!” They felt that Holy Spirit at the same time I did.
            His presence was tangible in the room.
            Do I have any meaningful answers to the question of whether we need to be baptized to enter The Kingdom of God? No, I don’t. I just know that if we can agree that Jesus Is The Lord and believe that, we should then obey His prompting. If His Spirit that lives within you tells you to get baptized, obey Him. If He doesn’t tell you to get baptized, it’s up to you what you choose to do. That’s what I think and tha, uh, tha, uh that’s all, folks.

            The Peace and Blessing of God to you, Nate, and to all of our brethren in Jesus Christ.

            Dave



          • Stu on February 17, 2019 at 2:00 pm

            Hi Nate. I think you are correct. Baptism was a public announcement and confession of the kinship people had with Christ, and in those days, it was huge. People were murdered because of that confession—just as many are in Eastern countries today.. Baptism is not something you do before you are saved; it has no meaning. But after you are saved (note the very tense of the word “after”), you are to then become obedient and profess to the world that you are a follower of Jesus. That was its purpose—to emphasize your bond with Christ—who was himself nailed to a cross for blasphemy. .

            Thanks for your coming along side us. Welcome in the name of the Lord.



          • wayne on January 27, 2020 at 4:24 pm

            Just be baptized in the name of the Jesus (according to his spiritual name) Revelation 19v12-13
            and be done



      • Son on February 16, 2019 at 1:07 am

        Brother Fessdo,
        I apologize that Jeanne got a little testy with you in her reply to your blessed, well-considered advice, which I prompted her to seek, I confess. She is high-spirited and not as spiritually minded as some, but I know she loves and worships Jesus, as best she has been enabled thus far by our Lord. She is very dear to me, I love her very much and I was there when she received Jesus as her Lord and Savior. I would like for her to increase her spiritual awareness and live to please God. I do what I can to lead her in that direction, but, again, women can be very secular in their thinking at times, as I’m sure you are aware. : )
        Thank you for being willing to counsel her with God’s wisdom and will for her, my very esteemed and beloved brother!

        Talk to you soon, bro.

        Dave

      • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:31 am

        It is only the person that He did foreknow that will be saved. It is of no consequence what we do or do not do as it pertains to the heaven or hell question. Rather, it is what He has done that will ultimately decide our fate. So it is the paradox of freewill by predestination that rules the day. “Remember me” was enough to gain the thief on the cross paradise. Was that by his own choice or by the choice that God already knew He would make. Answer=Yes

        • Stu on February 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm

          I think, if I may add to your comment Todd, that when God told Abraham to kill his son, Isaac, God already knew what he would do, but Abraham did not know; therefore, it was not for God’s benefit as you shared above regarding the thief on the Cross, but for Abraham’s. Abraham had to know experientially that his faith in God was genuine. So it is with us. Our obedience to the Holy Spirit is not for God’s benefit, but experientially, for ours. Thx for your comments.

          • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:26 pm

            Yes, yes, yes! It’s so refreshing to have people that understand the revelation of Jesus Christ as it truly is and not a version that has been tainted with man’s skewed view of God as they only see Him through their religion or graven image.

            So blessed to have like minded brother and sisters in Christ.



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 1:10 am

            Amen, brother Todd. We have established a fellowship in Jesus on this forum, finally.
            Let’s praise and honor our Lord here, brothers and sisters1

            With His Love,

            Dave



        • Son on February 20, 2019 at 12:50 pm

          NOW we are “getting to the depths,” as you put it, Todd, of this discourse. Free Will vs. Predetermination.
          God is omniscient, so He knows everything: past, present and future. He foreknew all of our decisions before we even knew we had a decision to make and, since time does not apply to God, it may as well have all happened simultaneously. Hence, predetermination exists and applies to every situation.. However, we, as human beings, do not know in advance what decisions we will have to make, nor do we know in advance what our choice(s) will be. We FEEL as though we make the decisions as the need to make a decision arises, so we are under the ILLUSION that we make a choice. Perception is 99.9%, at least, of reality, so our free will, thusly, IS REAL. It exists side by side with predetermination. How is that possible? It’s the ying and the yang. All things are possible with God. So, yes, free will can exist alongside predetermination.
          MATTHEW 19:26
          “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”

          Dave

          • Todd on February 20, 2019 at 11:32 pm

            Wow Dave you just blew me away. We are cut from the saw cloth my brother. You are literally speaking word for word what I have taught for the past 18 years. Out of the mouths of 1 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. It truly makes me want to weep at His goodness and mercy. I don’t know how I even found this blog. I serious don’t remember but I now know why.

            Thank you so much Dave. You have been a tremendous blessing to me the past two days than most I have spoke to the past 10 years. I believe this is how iit is supposed to be, effortless for us as God takes the reins and guides us to multiple detonations.

            Simply wonderful.

            Kind regards,

            Todd



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 1:14 am

            Praise Jesus for the fellowship He has provided for us on this forum! I, too, appreciate your spirit-filled contributions here, bother Todd. We shall overcome by The Blood of The Lamb and the word of our testimony!

            God bless you, dear brother Todd!

            Dave



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 2:15 am

            Yes, my true brethren, we are establishing a fellowship here on this forum as we share our experience with and appreciation of our Lord Jesus. Let us continue to each provide our own testimony so that we may all be edified and increased in our knowledge of and worship of God and His Only Begotten Son Jesus, His Holy Lamb! All praise, blessing, honor, glory and power unto Him!

            God bless you all and keep you in His Amazing Grace!

            Your bro,

            Dave



        • Stu on February 21, 2019 at 11:01 am

          Thinking about a comment someone once made, it got me thinking. It is hard to “please” God. When we use that word, it sounds more works-related than faith-based. Rather, we learn to “trust” God. And isn’t trusting Him really pleasing Him? That is what He really wants from us. I share this as it relates to a comment later you made, but there was no Reply button to click on. Thx for your very encouraging and positive attitude, knowing that every Christ follower is at a different place in his journey with the Lord.

          • Todd on February 21, 2019 at 11:49 am

            Amen Stu, I could not agree more. I once heard it said that faith is an acronym. Forsaking all I trust Him. You will never go wrong with that attitude. Pleasing people, self, or God are laborious acts that we sometimes do because it is expected of us, or we think that it is going to get us something in return. But He the Lord told us to enter the REST of God. That word to me has a twofold meaning. The rest pertaining to God’s rest on the 7th day. Of this there is much to say. We are to strive to enter that rest. People do not understand that God Himself is a paradox, a seeming contradiction. No doubt to the natural or carnal mind He is. To that mind this is all foolishness. Look at it this way. If we want to save our lives we must lose them. If we what to receive we must give. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. God thinks totally backward to our natural minds. Back to the rest of God, I want to suggest that entering that rest is the equivalent of having your head cut off and I am not talking about a physical act but rather a death to self, to my own will, to my own idea, to my own desire. Look at it this way, to have the mind of Christ another mind must die. If you go read in Hebrews about the rest of God there is a part of the scripture that kind of seems out of place for the subject. Almost like it was an after though and just thrown in there.

            4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

            2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

            3 For we which have believed do enter rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

            4 For he spaces in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

            5 And in this place again, if they shall enter my rest.

            6 Seeing therefore it remained that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

            7 Again, he limited a certain day, saying in David, to day, after so long a time; as it is said, today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

            8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

            9 There remained therefore a rest to the people of God.

            10 For he that is entered his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

            11 Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

            12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

            And there it is in verse 12. The Word which most would call the scripture but I would call Christ divides what is soul=psyche and what is spirit=pneuma. In short, He cuts your head off and gives you His mind. So much more revelation to be had here but not for now.

            Then the other rest of who God is not knowing God as you do know but finding the depths of who He is. The problem with that is that there is no rest of God. The rest of God cannot be captured or fathomed. We would have to be able to consume the universe and we still would not be able to find the rest of God. But it’s not about a destination but rather a journey to know Him and consume who He is one bite at a time. Knowing all of Him would mean that there is an end to Him and who He is. Impossible…He holds eternity in His hands. I sometimes wonder if God who is all knowing knows the depths of who He is. It is almost like asking the question could God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift. The answer, yes if He chose to not be able to lift the rock.

            More to your point, YES! Our trust in God is paramount. That degree of trust must driven with the fuel of LOVE. Again, and again this is the force that makes up everything in the kingdom, love. More than that Christ is the kingdom. He is the streets of gold, he is the pearly gate, he is the 12 foundation stones, and most certainly the light of the kingdom. Do not think of this in the abstract, HE IS ALL THOSE THINGS AND MORE. When you walk those streets of gold it is Christ that supports your feet. When you go through the gates it is He that is your entrance. Those big beautiful walls pf precious stones that provide beauty, strength and protection is a literal manifestation of Him. He is the substance of every stone in the wall. And no doubt about it He is the LIGHT of the CITY shining forth His radiant love and piercing the spirits of men as He rises from inside each one of the chosen. What a King!!!

            Here is the kicker. All that lives inside of us in time right now. All we must do is die to this carnal mind to the point where we like Paul are caught up to the 3rd heaven or 3rd dimension and we too can experience a taste of life over there. I believe that we have the same access as Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel, Paul etc… Are we willing a ready to trust Him to that degree? Amen!!!

            Regards,

            Todd



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 12:27 pm

            Hi, brother Stu. I may have once commented, “We can overcome our flesh and live in The Spirit when it becomes more important to us to please God than to please ourselves.” I researched and found the following bible verses with regard to that thought:
            1 JOHN 3:22 “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.”
            ROMANS 8:8 “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”
            1 THESSALONIANS 2:4 “But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.”
            Finally, Jesus tells us how to please God:
            JOHN 14:15
            ” If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
            I think we can please God by worshipping Him with all of our heart, mind and soul in spirit and in truth.
            JOHN 4:23
            “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

            His Peace to you, dear brother Stu!

            Dave



          • Son on February 21, 2019 at 12:55 pm

            How about these scriptures, brother Todd, with reference to the “acronym” or “paradox” nature of God?
            1 CORINTHIANS 17-29
            ” For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.”
            HEBREWS 11:3
            “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

            His Peace to you, brother.

            Dave



    • Son on February 15, 2019 at 1:45 pm

      Dear bro Chris, here is my heartfelt, honest take on salvation by faith in God’s Holy, Only Begotten Son Jesus, in complete agreement with Fessdo, I believe that all that is required to save us is the Blood of the Lamb. I also believe that we have been predestined unto salvation in accordance with The Perfect Will of God and that our salvation is sealed by His Word.

      Ephesians 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
      Ephesians 1:5
      “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
      Romans 8:29
      “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
      John 10:28
      “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

      I realize that my view of scripture is relatively simple and not as learned as those who painstakingly and intensely study each and every verse in the bible, seeking to glean hidden and secret meaning from every word. I rely on The Holy Spirit of Jesus who lives inside of me to interpret what I read in the bible and also provide me with inspiration and wisdom in accordance with His Will for my understanding and faith in Him. I rely on Jesus entirely for my life as I live each day one at a time, trusting His Will and waiting for His return. I’m not perfect, no, far from it. But, I just don’t feel a need to over-complicate matters and emphasize my differences between brethren of what is The Truth of God and what is the custom of men. If a brother can say to me, “Jesus is The Lord”, he is my brother in my sight and in the sight of God, I believe. That’s good enough for me, all praise and glory to Jesus.

      Luke 18:16
      “But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

      Of course we can share fellowship together, bro Chris, and also our brethren Fessdo, Stu, Abraham, Jeanne and all who come to this forum to honor and worship The Holy Name of God’s Word made flesh, Jesus Christ.

      Peace to you, bro.

      Dave

      • Stu on February 21, 2019 at 12:44 pm

        Hi Dave. My comment regarding pleasing and trusting God was not referring to what you shared in any way, but I was actually reflecting on a sermon preached by a Pastor whose high school kids brought him to Christ. He was distinguishing between works and grace and made a deep impression on me, and I felt like sharing that with Todd.

        May the Son shine on you today. 🙂

        • Son on February 21, 2019 at 12:59 pm

          Cool, bro. Thanks for the blessing.

          His Blessing be upon you, too, brother Stu!

          Dave

    • Todd on February 21, 2019 at 1:07 pm

      Here is your answer.

      16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s. 18 Let no man rob you of your prize [a]by a voluntary humility and [b]worshipping of the angels, [c]dwelling in the things which he hath [d]seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increaseth with the increase of God.

      20 If ye died with Christ from the [e]rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch 22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any [f]value against the indulgence of the flesh.

      People have struggled with these types of issue for a long time. Me, I’m just a backward country boy from Texas, but when I started on this path 18 years ago after being in the system, and I mean in the system for 36 years, these types of conflicts faded away. A new creation began in Him. I suddenly realized that freedom was not my ability to do whatever I wanted but rather the absolute joy in knowing that Christ would to do all things through me. If we were to just allow Him to be who He is in all that we do, it would set us free from these carnal minds and fleshly bodies.

      I do not give a you know what about the impediments that people put upon us that are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Who are they to trick us into going back to the rules and ordinances of men and not those of God? Once again, I humbly tell you that I am no one special but I do know that everything in our lives as it pertains to salvation and holiness can be summed up in these two things, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, you love your neighbor as yourself. In these two things are all the law and the prophets fulfilled. The first is toward heaven the second is the witness on the earth. Anything more than that becomes a lesson in futility because everyone can argue concerning rituals and ceremonies but no one can argue with LOVE i.e. CHRIST because that is who He is. He is the eternal and ultimate manifestation of love. If you traveled 1000 light years into space you will find a footprint of where He has already been which means love has already been there. Keep going on and on and on no matter how far no matter what galaxy it is you will find that His love has already been there. It is love that keeps the universe in order. It is love that causes the sun to rise. It is love that sent an innocent lamb to a lonely hill called Golgotha to bleed out His life so that He could expressed His love to you.

      This is how I read 1 Corinthians 13:13

      1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have Christ, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have Christ, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have Christ, it profits me nothing.

      4 Christ is patient, Christ is kind and is not jealous; Christ does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

      8 Christ never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is Christ.

      I hope that you see it. Christ is LOVE and Love is CHRIST. When I read this no it takes on a whole new meaning for me. Notice when we are in Him and only Him can we becomes love because that is who He is. Face to face or Love to Love is the greatest of all commandments and those two are the fulfillment of all. People see love as an emotion or some abstract idea of good. NO! Christ is literally the manifested of love and the very its essence of its existence.

      So, if you’re a heretic so am I. That may surely be man’s interpretation of us. But God! Oh yes, we are in a love relationship with Him and that is what drives them nuts because they cannot control us with their church, denomination, religion, rituals, ceremonies, or their infantile understanding and interpretations of scripture.

      We might well be nuts but we are screwed to the right bolt. So rejoice in the freedom that Christ has given to you but make certain that your dwelling place is in Him else you lose that freedom. Anyone or anything that puts any belief or law above CHRIST/LOVE is to be discarded and put on Paul’s dung heap. So take out the trash my brother and live in Him.

      Todd

      • Stu on February 21, 2019 at 1:30 pm

        Yes, Todd. I am with you in who Christ is and the paradoxes we see in the Spirit compared to the flesh. He is the land, in whom we dwell. He is the chair, for we are seated in Him. The water we drink and the food we eat are not the real water and food, for he is the living water and the bread of life. All that is real is Christ. All of the physical things we touch and enjoy, the clothes we wear and how we move about are not the real things, but shadows and figures of what is true. It is astonishing that what we see and experience dimly will soon be made clear.

  52. Jane on February 7, 2019 at 5:09 am

    Are people of other religions condemned?

    • Stu on February 7, 2019 at 8:01 am

      Hi Jane. A better question might be to ask, “Am I condemned”? I recall once, myself being a rather defiant atheist for twenty years, and who studied Physics with the very best, how anyone could stand the idea of religion. Surely, it was only a coping mechanism. I found great solace in—with even greater arrogance—that I was right. When I decided to turn my life around and humble myself, I realized Jesus was not part of a religion, but a relationship. He wanted us to know him, personally. It is pretty strange for a god to want to know a nearly invisible speck in the universe. He was not just any god, but the God who declares that we were made in His image, the God in whose character we were made. Yes, I was at least as skeptical as you. In fact, no one could believe it was the same me. But God can and does what is impossible for us to do. He doesn’t just change hearts or fix them, but gives us brand new ones.

      When a bridge is built, you cannot test it by sending a cat over it, but a train. When the atheist’s life is full and things are going well for him, he says to himself, “I have no need of God.” But it is when his world falls apart that the collapse of his bridge is imminent. Even Lenin cried out to Christ on his deathbed. Strangely, God delights in us when we call upon Him to save us, just as we might call upon our father in time of urgency and need..

      Can we not simply ask God if He is real? Sure we can. Would not the God of the universe be large enough to answer us and be pleased to reveal Himself to us? All through his Word He tells us to believe that what is not possible for man is possible with God. The real question comes down to whether you believe that. For twenty years, it was not something important for me. I hope one day it is for you. Ask Him sincerely to reveal Himself to you and watch—watch the little things you say and do. Don’t compare yourself to others, whose journey is at a different place than yours, for God does not deal with us enmasse, but individually. He wanted for there to be a Jane in this world and He wants you to know that.

      • Jane on February 7, 2019 at 8:18 am

        Dear Stu,
        Thanks for your answer but I’m a bit confused. You did not address my question. If a person believes in another god or a set of gods, will he/she be condemned if they worship their god(s) who may or may not have created the world.

        • Stu on February 7, 2019 at 8:43 am

          Here then Jane is what the Word of God tells us: “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

          Let me ask you a question. If the greatest designer of Cadillacs built one that you bought, would you alter its design? or would you accept the idea that changing even a single wire might make it run worse than if you had left it alone to do what it was designed to do? If God is the greatest designer of men, would you chance switching even a single wire when through experience you saw everyone fall short? Jane, we are imperfect. We are flawed, blemished and frail. We think we know everything because—if we are really being honest—we want to be God. Everyone of us wants to be right—even dead right. Only when we come to humble ourselves and know we are mortal, and do not have the answers of life as God knows them, will we accept the Cadillac the way it was designed to be.

        • Son on February 7, 2019 at 11:46 am

          Jane, we know not how God will judge. It is not up to me or Stu or Fessdo or anyone else to answer your question about who will be saved. It is up to God to judge.

          Matthew 7:1
          “Judge not, that ye be not judged.”
          John 14:6
          “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

          So, if you think you can believe in anything other than that Jesus is our Lord and Savior and still be saved unto eternal life in Paradise, go ahead and take your chances. But, if you want to be SURE about spending eternity in Paradise with Jesus, Stu, Fessdo and me ; ) – ask Jesus to please, PLEASE let you believe that He is The Lord.

          With His Love,

          Dave

          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 1:49 pm

            A guy keeps asking God to let him win the lottery. One day, as he is complaining to God about not winning the lottery, he hears a deep, booming voice from above say, “My son, you can’t win the lottery if you never buy a ticket!”

            Peace to you, brothers and sisters.

            Dave



      • Nick Van on February 13, 2019 at 12:33 pm

        Here is the answer you are looking for: John 14:6–7 (ESV)
        6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

        John 3:16–18 (ESV)

        For God So Loved the World
        16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    • Son on February 9, 2019 at 1:49 pm

      Hi, Jane – are you still following this thread or was your question rhetorical? You don’t want to believe in Jesus, evidently, or else you desire to demean Him and His followers by defiance and bitterness, the identifying characteristics of our (and your) enemy.
      So, let me try to put things in perspective for you in a way to which I believe you can personally relate:
      Let’s say Jesus was YOUR son and he told the world the things that your husband, who was God, The Father and Creator Himself, told him to say, healed the sick, turned the water into wine, walked on water and raised the dead back to life. Then, the people of the world torture him, demean and insult him and finally crucify him, right in front of your eyes. Would YOU forgive them? Would YOU be able to say to your husband, Jesus’ father and God Himself, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
      Or, do you plan to be one of the 72 virgins a Muslim gets awarded when he dies fighting in a Jihad, that Muslims intent being to kill anyone who doesn’t believe in Allah, his own god? Does that sound like a reasonable attitude to you? After being violated by some random Muslim, are you ready to forgive the guy for abusing you as his sex slave?
      Didn’t think so. And THERE is the answer to your question.
      If you wouldn’t forgive them, why should God forgive them? Make any sense to you?

      Peace to you.

      Dave

      • Stu on February 11, 2019 at 12:15 pm

        Hi Dave.

        Let me respond to your question regarding tithing. I asked a similar question to my Pastor. His answer was very much appreciated, and I respected him for it.

        Here was my comment: “I was under the impression that what the NT defined as giving was no longer called tithe,” but “offering.” I was under the impression that God only wanted what we joyfully gave, in fact expressing his distaste if it were given any other way. I also believed that tithing was commanded, but how does God command a person to be joyful if it is his free will do give as he pleases? An offering does not appear as harsh as tithe. It is confusing because in one sense God commands us to give more than 10%, and even so with joy. Does this not take away the spirit of giving if God commands it? It would be like someone giving to a charity out of his generosity but the charity is not satisfied with the amount. Because I know God loves me, I should want to give him whatever his pleasure is, but this seems negated by the expectation to. I am not arguing here—just playing the Devil’s advocate in a “what-if scenario.”

        Here was his response:
        “Dear Stu,
        The New Testament especially makes clear that God wants not obedient actions from us, but obedient hearts. Thus we are commanded to “rejoice always,” and “in everything to give thanks,” and to give “cheerfully.” God is not content with mere external compliance, that is, compliance in our outward actions, but He demands our hearts. This has always been the case, and that is why the first commandment is to “Love God with heart, soul, mind and strength,” but it is emphasized in the New Testament.

        It is impossible for us to obey such commands in our own strength. So when we come up against such a command, we must cry out to God and confess our inability as well as our utter dependence upon His Holy Spirit to enable us to obey. But then we must believe, and from that faith, obey.

        Yes, God does command us to do things impossible on our own. He commands us to give freely. We want to protest, “If it is a command, how can I do it freely?” He says, “You must give, and you must do it freely, not grudgingly or under compulsion.” So what are we to do? Flee to Him to give us what we do not have in ourselves. True Christian obedience is entirely impossible apart from Him. It is fulfilled only in Christ. Our obedience now, as Christians, is not about obtaining salvation, but experiencing it.

        Grace and peace,
        Craig”

        I hope this helps.
        Stu

        • Son on February 11, 2019 at 1:55 pm

          Stu, thanks so much for your thoughtful, revealing response to my question. The considerations that you have presented are very Spirit-filled and meaningful to me. I appreciate you taking time and effort to address my concerns. btw, do you give offerings to your church? If so, how do you decide the amount of your donation? How often do you donate that amount?

          Your brother in Christ,

          Dave

          • Stu on February 11, 2019 at 2:28 pm

            Yes Dave, I do, faithfully. I try to remember to thank God that the little I get is what is His to begin with. Obedience is greater than sacrifice. The old woman at the Temple gave more than all of the richest there—all she had. Jesus made her memory immortal. Do not concern yourself about the amount others give, but about what you give. Know that when you do, you are storing up riches in heaven. Giving represents generosity, and even more, a reflection about the eternal state of your heart.



          • Son on February 11, 2019 at 2:57 pm

            Stu, fwiw, I do not withhold money from God. Whenever He has asked me for it, I have given it freely and with good conscience. I have no idea why the pastor of the church I have been attending has recently (last two weeks) been soliciting tithes AND donations. He sounds desperate, if you ask me. I do not feel the prompting of God to give the church anymore than a $10 offering in the collection plate on Sunday. It feels like the pastor is putting a guilt trip on us to GIVE MONEY, GIVE MONEY, GIVE MONEY!
            Why? Are they mismanaging the church’s finances? The “worship” session before the service has become annoying to the point of being objectionable. The music is discordant, poorly chosen and accompanied by a Benny Hinn-type of revival histrionics on the part of the worship team leader. The church is starting to turn my stomach. I’m ready to leave and not go back. The only thing keeping me hanging on at this point is I enjoy and feel edified by the fellowship I share with some of my brethren at the church. I don’t really know them well enough to associate with them outside of the church environment. So, I am facing a dilemma as to what I should do. I don’t feel right about donating to this church at this time. The requests for money from the pastor make me feel very uncomfortable and drive me farther away from giving than a different, more subtle way of requesting donations than beating the congregation over the head with the GIVE, GIVE GIVE baseball bat.

            Thanks, bro, for your respected advice.

            Dave



    • Son on February 11, 2019 at 1:17 am

      Hey, brother Fessdo, the pastor at the church I have been attending has been beating the drum or TITHES PLUS OFFERINGS for the last couple weeks. Not only that, but the “worship” music has become loud, overwhelming and truly annoying during the same time, with prosperity gospel for the church the overriding theme. Do you think I should run away or destroy my life by giving to corrupt preachers and an insolvent church? I’m thinking about dropping out. I think I already know your response, but I’m curious to hear what you have to comment.

      With His Love for you, my respected and very dear brother.

      Dave

      • Son on February 11, 2019 at 1:51 am

        typo correction: beating the drum OF tithes plus offerings
        I guess that basically, I am asking you what you think about tithing and offerings to a church you attend.
        Thanks, bro.

        Dave

      • fessdo on February 12, 2019 at 7:25 am

        Dave,
        For years I was like Stu and gave my 10% plus LOTS of offerings till one day I saw I was neglecting my family. We was making a good living but we were living a poor life and the more we made the more the devil would condemn me to give. It took a bad thing to happen in my life to wake me up and show me I was on the wrong track. For the last ten plus years I’ve not so much as gave a penny to churches and I have much more peace plus a better relationship with my family.

        Matthew 9:13 GOD’S WORD Translation 13. Learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, not sacrifices.’

        You could ask my family and they would tell you we are living a good life now. But am I doing God’s will, when the devil ask me that I read him this.

        John 10:10 Easy-to-Read Version 10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I (Jesus) came to give life—life that is full and good.

        P.S The last church I attended I had to wear ear plugs during the so called worship time. People will do some foolish things trying to impress God.

        • Son on February 12, 2019 at 12:08 pm

          Fessdo, thank you so much for your studied and obviously well-considered response to my question. What you said makes perfect sense to me. And how brilliant a revelation about sacrifice in Matthew! Those words rung true in my heart.
          Basically, the church wants us to “buy” a membership. Moreover, I have no idea what my current church wants money for, for what they will use our “tithes” and “donations”. Is the church mismanaging money?
          Does the pastor desire a raise? I know they need to keep the lights on, but truthfully, it ain’t worth more than $10/week to me to listen to a sermon about giving tithes and donations, preceded by a racket and Benny Hinn-type histrionics that make you want to, as you put it, wear earplugs until its over. I don’t mind ignoring the pastor and not donating. I might even stop attending services. What I will miss is the fellowship I share with brethren in the church. And THAT is my dilemma. I desire fellowship with fellow Christians and it seems as though the church is the best way to find that. I do not begrudge God money. Whatever I have is His. But my common sense tells me that I must be responsible about how I spend what money I have, since I am retired now and have no way to get more money if I run out. Oh, you say
          “God will get you the money you need if you run out?” I guess you can call it a lack of faith on my part, but I would counter, “Well, God can get the church the money they need just as well.” I’m not trying to be a wise-guy here and mock God, never that! But, the church has been less than transparent about the reason they need, within the last two weeks, more money. The makes me a little suspicious. I could give every last dime I have to bums who solicit money on the street, thinking I’m giving to “the poor and needy”, and have nothing left to show for it but my own poverty and need. It is a tough situation. I want to please and serve God, I’m not greedy and/or stingy, but something just doesn’t feel right about giving away everything I worked for over 40 years to a church I’ve belonged to for a big two months. When God has asked me to help someone in the past, sometimes by giving money, I’ve done that and I am willing to answer God’s call in the future. But Fessdo, I look at someone like Joel Osteen and feel like the church leadership is trying to enrich themselves at my expense. It just sticks in my craw.

          Again, my beloved and respected brother Fessdo, thanks for your fellowship and highly regarded advice.

          In Jesus,

          Dave

          • fessdo on February 12, 2019 at 5:36 pm

            Dave,
            That “feeling that something is NOT right” is the Holy Spirit leading you not to make the same dumb mistakes I made for years. Wished I would have followed that (NOT feeling right) I had years ago, if I had of I could have retired a very rich man a decade ago.
            Years ago my pastor whom I had only knew a few months was going on a trip, I heard them say I need my car serviced before I go and could use some tires but I’ll have to wait on tires as they’re expense. At that time I had two jobs and one happen to be at a auto repair shop so I volunteered to service the car and replace the tires with new ones on my dime. The pastor was so thankful and I felt like I had really pleased God. Two months later the loan company picked up the pastor’s car (with the new tires), I felt like God was saying SUCKER. What kind of person doesn’t make their car payment but goes on a trip, the same kind person that wants new tires but keeps it a secret that they can’t manage money. Although that was about a $600 lessen and I didn’t learn a thing, it took years later and thousands $$$ before I finally got a clue.
            Like I say people will do some foolish things trying to impress God especially if they have a very cunning spiritual leader leading them.
            The one thing about getting older you get wiser.
            Matthew 10:16 King James Version (KJV)
            16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

            After all I’ve been thru I still have compassion for people in need, but before I even think about helping them I have to get to know them to be sure I’m not being used AGAIN.
            I use to say I miss God on a daily bases but now I think it’s more on a hourly one. However I believe with all my heart God is saying “Dave don’t make the same dumb mistakes Fessdo made”. There is too many churches for you to settle for less than Gods best.

            Hang in there my friend,
            Fessdo



          • Son on February 12, 2019 at 6:30 pm

            Fessdo,
            Thanks for confirming the feeling that I had initially when this “tithing” and “offerings” bs started at the church I have been attending. I really, truly appreciate your wise counsel, old friend. I also believe that you are SO RIGHT about His Spirit warning me about “wolves in sheeps’ clothing”. If the pastor was more forthcoming about exactly what the church needed the money for, it would have made a stronger case. The pastor, in my view, is no better than a bum on the street corner, except the pastor can use God as a lever to strong-arm you with a sense of guilt if you don’t give. I’d rather join a country club than pay this church anything more than a $10/week contribution (non-tax-deductible for me with the new personal exemption, now) to help keep the lights on.
            Just look at Joel Osteen. Please pass the barf bags.

            Much love for you, my esteemed and wise brother! Thanks for sharing the lessons you have learned with me. Sometimes I am a mere child, I guess, which is good in a way, but not so good in another sense. Thanks again for your prudent counsel!

            Dave



    • Krisu on February 14, 2019 at 4:17 am

      Christians (who are a bunch of bullies, as seen on these comments) do condemn people of other religions. Christians think they are so special. They lack knowledge of God.

      The one condemned by God is called Satan. That is the Anti-God. That is the Anti-Christ. That is Evil, Liar, Murderer, Sin. As God is Good, the Anti-God is Evil. As God is the Truth, the Anti-God is a Lie and all lies. And so on. It’s all very logical.

      That’s all there is, but “imperfect people” don’t get it, because it is about Spirit, not people. People who worship people gather in churches and worship people. They may have nothing to do with God, who is Spirit.

      Jane, there is only one true God. God is All-Knowing. God is Spirit. God has no gender. God is not human.

      • fessdo on February 14, 2019 at 7:58 am

        Krisu,
        Proverbs 23:1-3 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
        When you sit down to eat with a ruler, pay close attention to what is in front of you, and put a knife to your throat if you have a big appetite.
        Do not crave his delicacies, because this is food that deceives you.

        • Son on February 14, 2019 at 11:07 am

          Fessdo, can you please explain Proverbs 23:1-3 to me? I don’t quite understand the meaning.

          Thanks, bro.

          Dave

          • fessdo on February 14, 2019 at 12:23 pm

            Dave,
            When the appetite is strong, and the food enticing, the danger of sinning and suffering is great, – greater than most of us care to observe, and acknowledge to ourselves. The warning here is strongly expressed, and all its strength is needed. To say “Christians (who are a bunch of bullies)” is falling into a judge status and we know what judging causes.



          • Son on February 14, 2019 at 12:46 pm

            So, do you mean that Krisu, by judging Christians for “being bullies” and “condemning people of other religions”, is himself judging others and thereby defying God’s command to us?
            Matthew 7:1
            “Judge not, that ye be not judged.”
            Did I understand your meaning correctly?
            Also, regarding Krisu’s comment, I read this in the bible and it seems to me to apply here, maybe?
            Acts 4:12
            “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

            Thanks for your explanation, Fessdo.

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 14, 2019 at 1:00 pm

            Dave,
            Acts 4:12 is not only a great verse here for Krisu but also for Jane. It does seem like both have judged Christians really harshly, but to be fair I would have to say judging others is a tough one for me to overcome. However thank God I have a savor named Jesus Christ the one and ONLY way to God.



          • Son on February 14, 2019 at 1:16 pm

            Well, God makes the rules, he’s got the clout to back up His authority and He’s the only true judge.
            So, if He gave us knowledge of His Will in Acts 4:12, who are we to dispute His Perfect, Infinite Knowledge and Will? I still say that I don’t know how God will judge on Judgment Day, that knowledge has not been given to me, but I believe that God will be just, righteous and fair when He delivers His judgment of each and every one of us. I’m just very thankful and humbled by His Amazing Grace in forgiving a sinner like me.

            Peace and Blessing from Jesus and The Father unto you, dear brother Fessdo.

            Dave



    • Grace ambassador (bro Chris) on February 18, 2019 at 10:25 pm

      Grace And Peace, Dearest Jane. I do agree with Stu, that is An “INDIVIDUAL” decision of one who “believes” they “should Give An Account” To Almighty God, The Creator Of ALL, And The “Righteous JUDGE” Of ALL HE Has Created! Bottom Line, This Is From The Bible, so the Only question remains:

      IF, In The End, The BIBLE turns out to be FALSE, But I “believe” It Anyway, What Have I lost?

      On the other hand, IF The BIBLE IS TRUE, And YOU “Do NOT BELIEVE” It, Then, What HAVE YOU LOST?

      just sayin’…

      Chris

  53. Atheist Man on February 4, 2019 at 9:51 am

    Church Sucks, and i would never waste my time going there since God the Asshole never gave me a wife and family to share my life with.

    • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 10:17 am

      Atheist Man,
      With an attitude like yours it’s hard to understand why God hasn’t come down from heaven in person to cater to your every need? I’m sure He will soon but if he doesn’t then when you die you can tell Him He owes you a BIG apology for not giving a sweet guy like you all the breaks. Poor little fellow I feel your pain just hang in their (big baby).
      Fessdo

      • Son on February 4, 2019 at 1:07 pm

        I’m confused now. I thought this thread was about why people shun church attendance. It seems like a forum for people to gripe about their lives. My advice to them is to spend a week in Iran. Broken egg concept. Remember that one?

        Yours truly,
        Ann Landers

        • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 1:22 pm

          Dave,
          That’s funny and you’re so right. I could kind of understand if it was girls crying the blues but these are cry baby men or boys where I come from. Now that would be my kind of man if I was a women looking for the perfect guy,,, a thumb sucking cry baby that falls to pieces at a hang nail or a bad hair cut or who don’t get his way each and every time and crys crys crys!!!
          Sad thing Dave is they don’t see themselves as being so pathetic, so the put the blame on God or the women.

          • Son on February 4, 2019 at 1:44 pm

            It’s not only guys, Fessdo. Elane wasn’t too happy with events in her life, evidently, Read below. A couple of weeks ago, The Lord revealed something to me through The Spirit: He told me that my life is in His Hands and that I would live in accordance with The Will of God. That gives me a lot of peace, because I don’t have to worry about the future. He’s got it all handled.

            Matthew 6:34
            “Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”

            Matthew 6:31-33
            “Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

            Mark 8:36
            ” For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”

            I feel empathy for those who feel hurt, rejected, persecuted or lonely, but only God can make them whole and renew their lives. Also, we should learn to accept His Perfect Wil because we are not going to change it. God has a perfect plan for mankind. We cannot comprehend the infinite consciousness of God, but thanks to Jesus, we can trust God because we know Him.

            John 14:9
            ” Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”

            Only God knows what it takes for 70 or 80 years here to get us into Heaven with Jesus for all of eternity and what’s more important than where we shall spend all of eternity?

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 6:32 pm

            Dave,
            You are so on point with this, the people here have a emptiness that they’re feeling and they think a guy or gal will solve it when Jesus is the one they need. When they receive Jesus then they can start looking for the other things they need and God will give it to them.
            Matthew 6:33 Easy-to-Read Version What you should want most is God’s kingdom and doing what he wants you to do. Then he will give you all these other things you need.



          • Son on February 4, 2019 at 7:52 pm

            Again, God knows our needs as human beings. I believe that if we ask Him like small children whom He has adopted us as His Own through the Charity, Mercy and Grace of Jesus, in dying on our behalf so that we might not perish but have eternal life with God, our Father and Jesus, our brother and only begotten Son of God, that He will guide us through life on this earthly plane and provide for our needs, which He knows better than we ourselves. Some things you folks might want here, if you happen to be living strictly for the needs of your own flesh, are possibly in violation of God’s rules to live by and therefore harmful for you.
            But if it is a good gift that you seek, if you ask Him humbly, He very well may come through for you. No harm in asking Him and patiently waiting for His Will to be done.
            Luke 11:11
            “If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?”



          • Son on February 4, 2019 at 7:58 pm

            Understand, dear brethren, it is not seemly to be demanding and impatient with God. He is our Creator and sent us His Appointed Savior that we might be reconciled with Him and receive everlasting life in His Kingdom.
            We should approach God humbly and with gratitude that He forgave us. Remember, we started that war by disobeying Him in the first place, in The Garden of Eden. And our disobedience cost Him His Only Begotten Son. And for US? How unworthy are we of His Grace and Mercy?! Be thankful to Him.

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 8:09 pm

            Dave,
            If people don’t agree with your comment here then they don’t know Jesus and what He can do in they’re life. If I didn’t have Jesus as my Lord and savior I would be so lost that living wouldn’t be worth living,,,,, living wouldn’t be worth living,,,,,,,,,, living wouldn’t be worth living…… Jesus is worth more than beer, dope, sweets, money, cars, trucks, kids, wife, husband, or mansions. People wake UP UP UP UP!!!! Don’t die and be called a dumb asssssssssssssssss.,



      • Jane on February 7, 2019 at 4:13 am

        Not sure why, but reading this article and some comments make me feel happy I’m an atheist.

        • fessdo on February 7, 2019 at 6:12 am

          Jane,
          Sounds like you’re not sure about a lot of things. Maybe it’s not sure but insecure that you’re struggling with.
          Jesus can fix either one for you, just ask Him.

          • fessdo on February 8, 2019 at 6:10 pm

            Abraham,
            Dave has a deep question here and if you’re new to this blog you’ll have to back up all the way to Feb 7 at6:12 am and hit that reply. Here’s my thoughts on Dave’s question but please add yours.
            God Is NOT Everywhere & Does NOT Know Everything

            The idea of God being everywhere at once and knowing all things from eternity past, present, and future is not an idea that is supported by scripture. This is sometimes referred to as God’s omnipresence and foreknowledge or omniscience. To prove that He is not everywhere, all we must do is find one place where He is not. To prove that He does not know everything, all we must do is find one thing in scripture that He doesn’t know.

            God Is NOT Everywhere
            “YES HE IS! AND IF GOD ISN’T EVERYWHERE THEN GOD ISN’T GOD!” is what I’ve heard so many times. It does seem much easier to believe that God is everywhere, at least at first, but the more you search the scriptures, the more you will find proof against it; and out of God’s own mouth at that. The scriptures don’t contradict. Ask your pastor to supply you with bible verses on this topic and not opinions. The purpose of showing these verses IS NOT to expose some weakness in God, but on the contrary, it clears up some issues of accountability… If God is everywhere, then He obviously knows everything; the two ideas go hand in hand.

            God Does NOT Know Everything
            “Billions of years ago, God already knew that you would be right where you are now, reading this paragraph” Right? God never said He knew everything. The word “omniscience” cannot be found in the bible. He knows the number of hair on your head, He knows the sparrows that fall to the ground (Luke 12:6-7), but the bible doesn’t say He knows the sparrows that will fall to the ground millions of years from now or how many hairs will be on your head in the future. This doesn’t mean that God is any less God. Knowledge makes a person accountable. Anyone who knows that something is going to happen but fails to act is guilty of inaction. Knowledge is power, and with great power comes great responsibility. Luke 12:48 says, “…to whom much is given, much is required…” If everything is in God’s hands, then He is required of everything. If anyone knows 100% of everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen, they are responsible for everything past present and future.

            Would God Have Created Lucifer?
            Would God have created Lucifer, knowing he would one day become Satan (His worst enemy) and be the result of billions of human deaths AND countless angels (1/3 of the angels in heaven) falling from grace and burning in The Lake of Fire for eternity? Would God have created him if He knew it would end with His own son being tortured on the cross?

            Would God Not Prevent Tragedy?
            A little child was crossing the road and got hit by a car. There was a person watching the whole time because he was right next to the child, AND he knew exactly what was going to happen. He had 100% control to prevent the situation and yet made a conscious decision NOT to prevent it. In fact, he also had control over the car that hit the child. Now, that man has become responsible for what has happened.

            Where God Is & What God Knows
            Matthew 6:9 – “Our Father, which art in heaven…” (Also in Luke 11:2)
            [in heaven] – Did Jesus say, “Our Father, which art EVERYWHERE”? No. Our Father which art in heaven. Heaven is where God is coming down from in the following verses:

            Genesis 18:21 – “I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.”
            [I will: go down, see, and know] – This was from God’s own mouth. How stupid do we make God sound when we say He is everywhere, sees, and knows everything? Under that theory, this verse would read, “I will go down now to where I already am, and see what I’m already there looking at, and if not, then I will know what I’ve already known this whole time”.

            Genesis 11:5 – “And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower….”
            [came down to see] – If the Lord was already there, then He wouldn’t have to come down, and if He’s already looking at it, then He doesn’t need to come to see; He would have been there the whole time seeing every brick that was laid.

            2 Corinthians 3:17 – “… and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
            [where the Spirit of the Lord is] – Is liberty everywhere? No. Neither is the Spirit of the Lord. Where the spirit of the Lord is not, there is captivity and bondage. Is the Spirit of the Lord in a non-Christian? No. That’s what Christians try to accomplish through preaching.

            Psalms 14:2 – “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.”
            [to see] – Once again, if God knew/saw everything and was everywhere, this verse would say something like, “The Lord looked down to see what He was already looking at to know what He already knew.”

            Jeremiah 8:21 – “For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.”
            [astonishment] – If God had foreknowledge prior to this event, it would not have astonished God.

            Matthew 7:23 – “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
            [depart from me] – How can God, being everywhere, say depart from Me?
            Acts 17:24 – “…God… dwelleth not in temples made with hands”

            GOD SEARCHES TO FIND
            Why would God search if He already knows everything? Would you search for something if you already knew where it was? Can you learn something that you already know? Study the following verses:

            Genesis 18:26 – “And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
            Genesis 18:28 – “Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.”
            [if I find] – Not that I already know, but if I find when I go there. God’s response would have been different had He known how many righteous men were in Sodom. “I am already there looking at everyone and I already know how many righteous people there are in that city; there aren’t forty-five there.”

            Numbers 10:33 – “And they departed from the mount of the Lord three days’ journey: and the ark of the covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days’ journey, to search out a resting place for them.”
            [to search] – The ark of the Lord was the presence of God. If God was everywhere He wouldn’t have to search for a resting place! He would already be everywhere and know every resting place on earth.

            Deuteronomy 1:33 – “Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.”
            [to search] – Why should He search out a place? If He had foreknowledge, He would have known millions of years ago exactly where they should have set their tents.

            1 Chronicles 28:9 – “And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.”
            [the Lord seracheth] – Why does God search the heart if He already knows what’s inside? The answer is simply that God does not know what is in a person’s heart UNTIL He searches it.

            Jeremiah 17:10 – “I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
            [I search] – If we contend that God already knows what’s in the heart before He searches , aren’t we saying that He’s stupid for looking for something that He has already found? It would be as if someone was looking all over their house for their car keys when they knew it was in their pocket the entire time.

            Hosea 7:1 – “When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.”
            [Iniquity was discovered] – If God knew everything then He couldn’t discover anything.

            Romans 8:27 – “…He that searcheth the hearts…”
            1Corinthians 2:10 – “…The Spirit searcheth all things…”
            Revelation 2:23 – “…I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts…”

            Psalms 139:23-24 – “Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.”
            [search me, try me, see if] – All of these statements indicate no foreknowledge.

            GOD TESTS TO KNOW
            If you are a student, and a teacher gives you a test, is the test meant to teach you something? No, it’s meant for the teacher to know what you’ve already learned or how well you’ve learned it; knowledge that the teacher didn’t have before. God doesn’t test with evil (James 1:13), but He does test (1Th 2:4).

            Deuteronomy 8:2 – “And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.”
            [to know] – Here, scripture said that God didn’t know whether they would keep His commandments or not, therefore in order to know, God tested them.

            Genesis 22:11-12 – “And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.”
            [now I know] – God did not say that He knew what Abraham would do before He tested him. On the contrary, He said NOW I KNOW.

            GOD REGRETS THINGS AND GETS ANGRY
            Genesis 6:7 – “And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
            Jeremiah 15:6 – “Thou hast forsaken me, saith the Lord, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.”
            2Samuel 6:7 – “And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.”
            [I repent] – “I regret” and “I am sorry”. Why do something you know you’ll regret?
            [anger of the Lord] – If God had foreknowledge and knew Uzzah would touch the ark millions of years before he did, did God get angry millions of years before Uzzah actually touched the ark just so He could kill him when it came time? Did God repent for all eternity up until Genesis 6:7 actually happened?

            GOD ASKS QUESTIONS
            God DOES ask questions to get information. This doesn’t mean every question God asks is a question He doesn’t have the answer to. All of Job 38 and on are series of questions that He asked Job that He knew the answers to. Every teacher asks questions they already have the answers to, but that doesn’t mean that they have the answer to EVERY question they ask.
            Genesis 3:9 – “And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?”
            Genesis 3:11 – “And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
            [Where art thou? Who told thee?] – Consider that God was everywhere and knew everything… As Adam and Eve were hiding, God would have been right behind them while at the same time approaching from several feet away asking, “Where are you”. Then as He was behind the tree with them He asked a question that He knew the answer to trillions of years prior. The truth is, God went through the process of elimination: the only way you could know that you’re naked is if someone told you or if you found out yourselves by eating from the tree. Why would God ask, “Who told you that thou wast naked” if God knew that THEY knew they were naked because they ate the fruit?

            Job 1:7 & Job 2:2 – “And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
            [whence comest thou] – I find this point more debatable than the rest because perhaps God knew where Satan was coming from. We can assume He’s just making conversation… But if God knew everything and was everywhere, I suppose this would be a strange question to ask. Imagine that the angels (Sons of God) who were gathered around at that time and asked each other, “Is something wrong with God? Why is He asking questions He knew the answers to millions of years ago? Didn’t God already know where Satan was? Isn’t He everywhere, and wouldn’t He have been where Satan was if Satan was walking around the Earth?”

            God Is Light, He Is Not Darkness
            God is light as Satan is darkness (Acts 26:18). There is no light in darkness, and there is no darkness in light. Light and darkness cannot be present at the same time. Why say this? Because since God is light, it shows another place where God is not; in the dark! If God were in the darkness it would become light because God is light. Here are some supporting verses.
            1 John 1:5 – “…God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
            2 Corinthians 6:14 – “…what communion hath light with darkness?”
            Acts 26:18 – “…turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God…”

            How Do We Use This Knowledge?
            The first thing I want to say is that I originally didn’t have any motivation to look for verses that said God didn’t know everything or wasn’t everywhere. I casually found these verses while reading the bible and a mentor of mine showed them to me again and made them more clear. I started out with the common belief that He was everywhere and knew everything. I certainly tried to find verses about God being everywhere and knowing everything, but I can’t ignore the verses listed above and many like it in other places. It changed my way of thinking while reading the bible.
            Now that you have this knowledge, how do you use it? Well, it’s not as much about using the knowledge as it is having a different understanding of how things work. It explains why some things are the way they are. It makes God’s will more clear, understanding that not everything that happens is because God wants it to. Some people don’t pray because they think because they believe God knows all their thoughts. Many people blame God for ALL the evil in the world because they think He knew about it beforehand and didn’t prevent it, was right there and didn’t stop it, and had all control and power and still did nothing.

            Verses on God Being Everywhere & Knowing Everything
            While trying to find the truth in a matter, it’s always wise to examine both sides of the case carefully. If a person believes God is everywhere, they should not only try to find scripture that supports their belief, but find scripture that could also have them prove the God not being everywhere to be true. If a person believes God is not everywhere, they should try to find verses on God being everywhere. In the end, the truth will be exposed. While proving scripture, make sure to always have 2 or 3 passages of scripture to support a point. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matt 18:16). Here are some common verses that are used to teach that God knows everything and is everywhere.

            1 John 3:20 – “For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”
            [knoweth all things] – This is as close as it comes to saying God knows everything. This is not saying that God just generally knows everything about everything, even the choices that unborn people are going to make a million years from now. This verse is talking about the heart. By saying “God knoweth all things”, what it is saying is that God knows all things about the heart, which is the topic of the verse. How does He know everything about the heart? Because he searches all hearts (1Chr 28:9 and Acts 1:24). However, He doesn’t know what’s in the heart until He searches it.

            John 21:17 – “…Peter… said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things”
            [thou knowest all things] – For one thing Jesus doesn’t know, see Mark 13:32 – “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.“ The conclusion is that Peter was wrong because here. There is one thing that Jesus said He didn’t know, so He doesn’t know ALL things. This was part of Peter’s 3rd confession for Christ. In contrast, Jesus DID predict that Peter would deny Him 3 times previous to this (Matt 26:34, Mark 14:30, Luke 22:61 & John 13:38). How did Jesus know that Peter would deny Him? First, He knew Peter’s heart (Acts 1:24) and second, He knew the situation Satan would put him in (Luke 22:31) that Peter would have 3 opportunities to accept or deny. By putting Peter in a position to deny Jesus three times, Satan really wanted to establish that Peter was genuinely denying Jesus (Matt 18:16).
            Should we accept Peter saying, “thou knowest all things” as fact? Should we accept Peter’s denial that he knew Jesus before Jesus was crucified as a fact (Matt 26:74, Mark 14:72, Luke 22:57, John 18:27)? No. That’s why this statement is also questionable and needs more similar scripture to be proved, but it would conflict with the above verses where God says He “will know”.
            In other parts of the gospels, Jesus perceives, knows thoughts, and knew things from the beginning” (Matt 12:25, Luke 5:22, John 2:24-25, 6:64, 21:17). Once again though, those verses talk about individual things that Jesus knew. Was the knowledge supernatural? Most likely, yes. I’m not saying Jesus doesn’t have power to know what He wants, just that scripture shows that He doesn’t know EVERYTHING. To prove that God does not know everything, we mustn’t find all the individual things that He does know; we only need to find one thing that He doesn’t know like Genesis 18:21.

            Luke 12:7 – “Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.”
            [the hairs of your head are all numbered] – That God knows all the numbers of hairs on everyone’s head shows 1 thing He knows. Does it imply that God knows everything? No. Does it imply that God has great knowledge and is the most intelligent being in the universe? Yes.

            Psalms 139:7-10 – “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
            [Whither shall I go from thy spirit?] – This alone must be the main verse that most turn to when supporting the idea that God is everywhere. Of course, Father God is in Heaven (Matt 6:9). God is not in hell; Hell is the absence of God because Jesus says, “depart from me” (Matt 7:23). How this can be understood is that Jesus did descend to hell and took the righteous captives (like David) up to heaven (Eph 4:8-9). Why did David say to God, “Don’t leave me, don’t forsake me” (Psalms 27:9 & 38:21) if it were not possible for God to leave him? If God is everywhere, then God can’t leave David. If David said, “Don’t leave me”, then he must not believe that God is everywhere, and neither should we.

            Jesus Predicts Events of Revelation
            How can God say what’s going to happen in Revelation if He doesn’t know everything? There are a few reasons… Most of the things that happen in the book of Revelation are what God makes happen. It’s the Lamb (Jesus) who will open the seals (Rev 6:1). If He never breaks the seals, most things from Revelation will never happen. He knows the results of His actions. He is also supernaturally powerful to make it happen. In part He has predicted what He will cause to happen through His awesome power…
            God has searched and knows the heart and thoughts of every living creature, whether mortal or immortal, flesh or spirit, me, you, Satan, angels, demons, all souls in heaven, all souls in Hell, and all hearts of everyone in the universe (1 Chronicles 28:9). He knows that if evil is in a person’s heart, and they are faced with a choice to choose a path of good or evil that they will likely choose evil. He also knows that a good heart will generally choose good. This is another likely way God knows how things will go during that time.

            God’s Omnipresence
            Many people believe the word omnipresent to mean “everywhere at all times”. However, “omni” means several or multiple, not everywhere! God has a body like men because man was created in His image (Gen 1:26). Actually, men have a body like God, but whatever, you understand… God has body parts that are all confined to one place. For example, God has hands and fingers (Ps 8:3-6), a mouth (Num 12:8), eyes (Ps 33:18), back parts & a face (Ex 33:23), etc. God goes from place to place in a body as in Gen 3:8, 11:5, 18:21, and so on. God is a spirit (John 4:24). Here’s how He can be omni-present:
            Luke 17:21 – “… the kingdom of God is within you.”
            1 Corinthians 3:16 – “… ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you…”
            John 15:4 – “… Abide in me, and I in you…”
            [the Spirit of God dwelleth in you] – The same Spirit dwells in all born again believers. This is how God (The Holy Spirit) can be in several places at once; by dwelling in believers! It must have been God’s plan to put the Holy Spirit in His children. Imagine the power… If the devil was afraid of 1 Jesus, Imagine that the world had 2 or 3 Jesus’. Imagine thousands! Could this be part of destroying the devil (Heb 2:14)?

            Does God Hear & See Everything?
            Proverbs 15:3 – “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.”
            Psalms 94:9 – “He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? He that formed the eye, shall he not see?”
            [Shall He not hear? Shall He not see?] – God SHALL hear and He SHALL see. This doesn’t mean He always hears and sees things before they happen or even right when they begin happening (Gen 11:5, 18:21). It also doesn’t mean that He sees and hears things years before they happen. What it does mean is that you will never be able to hide from God. You can’t keep secrets from God. God has an angel that records your actions (Ecc 5:6), assigned to “little ones” (Matt 18:10), as well as angels follow the righteous (Ps 91:12). Why would God have hosts of angels to do His work and be messengers for Him if He is everywhere?



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 11:53 pm

            A most impressive exposition, Fessdo. It must have taken a bit of time putting all that together. I appreciate your efforts to convince me that God is not omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
            Matthew 19:26
            “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
            Luke 1:37
            “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
            Why would God be any less than He can be?
            Matthew 19:14
            “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
            I am a little child.
            Praise and glory to Jesus.

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 9, 2019 at 9:40 am

            Dave,
            Not trying to convince you that God is not omniscient,
            omnipotent or omnipresent, just showing you the difference between what’s in the bible and the sacred cow beliefs of churches. I had one Sunday school teacher quit teaching because I had challenged him to find a famous saying he had used stating it was in the bible. After 2mts and 15 people trying hard to find it in the bible he finely said it may not be in the bible but he wasn’t going to stop using it. A week later he stopped teaching, I guess if his sacred cow wasn’t in the bible then the bible wasn’t worth teaching.
            Had a lady tell me that I was wrong saying “it’s by grace that you’re saved thru faith” I had he open her bible and read,
            Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            when she finished I smiled and said now do you believe it?
            She took off her glasses and said NO,
            I asked how can you NOT believe it when it’s in the bible?
            she quickly answered “oh there’s a lot of stuff IN the bible I don’t believe.

            People today are saying there’s a lot of stuff NOT in the bible that I believe.
            Out of the 15 people that found out the teacher’s saying wasn’t in the bible none said I was right and all to this day use the saying as if it’s the gospel.
            Guess you see now why it’s hard for me to find a church?
            It’s easy to go with the crowd and believe along with them,
            but in the end it may get a little tougher for the crowd?
            My focus is on Jesus and being with Him in the end.



          • Son on February 9, 2019 at 12:10 pm

            Where in the world is Jane, who initiated this whole brouhaha? Guess she was more interested in airing out her gripes to the world than discovering The Truth of All Truths, that JESUS IS THE LORD.
            Fessdo, my old friend and sometimes honery old cuss, lol, I believe that every person has their own personal relationship with God and that, most likely, no two are exactly the same, just as we have different relationships with other human beings. In my own, personal relationship with God, He has shown me that what is in the bible is truth, His Truth, and through His Holy Spirit, He gives me understanding of what I read. Jesus also uses my brethren to communicate His wisdom to me, conduits of God’s voice, if you will, and those communications have an influence on what I think and believe. And, more rarely but still occasionally, Jesus speaks directly to me, that little, inner voice that only I can hear but it gets my complete attention. So, I read the bible (to whatever page he makes my fingers open it, usually, unless I am reading through an entire passage and pause to sleep or whatever, in which case I don’t let my fingers do the walking), commune with Him through prayer and meditation upon His Glory and Awesome-ness and now I even attend a church and their bible study groups, to which God led me by His Grace, where I have found, thus far, true brethren in their worship of Jesus in spirit and in truth. Thus far.
            I still say that we should approach God with meekness, humility and sincere gratitude, for that is pleasing to The Most High Creator and King of The Universe. He has given me inner peace, for which I am so VERY THANKFUL, GRATEFUL AND HUMBLED BY HIS GIFT OF FAITH TO ME!
            ME! SAVED! Thank you, Lord Jesus, my savior, master, God and very best friend!
            I believe that God lets us know when we are straying from that straight and narrow path upon which He has set us that we may gain entrance into His Holy Kingdom of Heaven when the time for that comes. He also gives us His peace that passeth all understanding when we are following that narrow path. As long as I am blessed by that peace with Him, I am not going to concern myself with ecumenical differences. In my mind and spirit, they are simply the arguments of men. There is only one truth, the only truth we need to know to be saved unto eternal life and that is, JESUS IS THE LORD.
            And about works: do you remember the parable of the fig tree? Gregg Powers, are you out there?
            Luke 13:6-9
            He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.”
            I know you have ears to hear, brother Fessdo. What you interpret that parable to mean is between you and Jesus, I believe. Here is what the bible instructs us, regarding faith related to works:
            James 2:14-26
            What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

            I wish you could join me at the church I now attend, Fessdo. You would be welcomed and feel the love of Jesus in that church as I introduced you to my friends and brethren. It would be a wonderful thing.
            Of course, you’d have to behave and not act like an honery old cuss. ; )
            But, in the meanwhile, as we wait for the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus to bring us home, we’ll probably have to settle for this forum to share in His Spirit, my friend and brother.

            God’s Peace to you.

            Dave



          • Son on February 9, 2019 at 11:10 pm

            Fessdo, God knows Jane. He knows her heart, her mind and her soul, because He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He knows why she wrote what she did and He knows why she doesn’t respond. Let’s just leave it at that, bro.

            Love you, man.

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 10, 2019 at 7:01 am

            Dave,
            That sounds like a winner to me.
            Fessdo



          • Son on February 10, 2019 at 9:31 am

            Whatever happened to “Abraham TheBibleMan”?
            You out there, bro?
            I thought you were going to help me to understand why Calvinism is so wrong.

            Dave



          • Son on February 10, 2019 at 5:58 pm

            Fessdo, got a question for you.
            My wife and I are retired and our income is probably 150% less than it was when we were working. The past two or three weeks, the church we have been attending has been beating the drum for not only tithe giving, but donations in addition to tithing. It sounds to me like the church is having some financial problems. Also, their music ministry is making a lot of noise, not music. It is positively ANNOYING rather than ANNOINTING. I’m considering dropping out of church, even though I’ve met some people there whom I like and with whom my wife and I could possibly develop a friendship relationship. I’ve only attended this church for perhaps 6 weeks, so it’s not as though I’m deeply attached to it. Should I be upfront with the pastor and ask him some tough questions about the church finances and why the fund-raising push, or do you think I should run away from the situation? I trust your advise, my brother. Thanks.

            Dave



        • Son on February 7, 2019 at 11:27 am

          Jane, I was once an agnostic, many years ago. I thought about John Calvin’s Theory of The Elect and realized that I may be missing The Truth, that I may be damned to destruction in Hell. I got down on my knees and begged Jesus to help me believe. His Holy Spirit dropped down upon me like a dove and I knew instantly that JESUS IS THE LORD. He has never deserted me or forsaken me. He’s been my strength and purpose every day of my life since I asked Him to help me believe in Him and He is still my Lord, God, Savior and Best Friend to this very day.
          Pray for revelation of The Truth, sister. It will save your life, if you are on His list of The Elect.

          John 6:44
          “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
          John 15:16
          “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
          Acts 13:47-48
          ” For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

          With The Love of Jesus,

          Dave

          • fessdo on February 7, 2019 at 5:29 pm

            Dave,
            Just wondering what you mean by saying ” It will save your life, if you are on His list of The Elect”?
            Fessdo



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 5:57 pm

            Well, ole pal Fessdo, it’s pretty self-explanatory I think, and it surprises me, actually, that you have to ask me this question.
            Remember, “Night has fallen, Lewis (Fessdo)?” You’re on “The List” (of The Elect) or you’re not.
            Ephesians 1:4
            “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
            Now, take me, for an example: I didn’t believe in God, although I didn’t NOT believe in God before He saved me by filling me with His Holy Spirit. If I hadn’t gotten down on my knees and begged Him to reveal The Truth to me, The Truth that Jesus Is The Lord, I may have never believed that Jesus is the Lord. I had to ask in order to receive an answer. If I were not on His List of The Elect, I would never have known The Truth, that Jesus Is The Lord. Don’t you agree with me here? So, it therefore seems prudent for me to advise Jane to earnestly, importunately ask for revelation of The Truth, and who ya gonna call? JESUS. If Jane doesn’t receive an answer, I guess she takes her chances with whatever happens after death. She’s a big girl and can make her own decisions. If she doesn’t ask, or if she asks and doesn’t receive her answer, she’s no worse off than if she never had asked at all, right?
            Wanna win the lottery? Ya gotta buy a ticket, friend.

            Peace to you, bro.

            Dave

            p.s. – I’m certainly not posturing as though I have all of the answers. You asked me a question and I gave you my opinion as an answer. It’s probably much more complicated and obtuse than I’m making it out to be here.
            1 Corinthians 8:2
            “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
            What I DO know is that Jesus Is The Lord, the crowning Truth of all creation, God’s Holy Word, by whom everything was created and for whom everything was created and exists.
            John 1-3
            “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
            So…did I pass Professor Fessdo’s pop quiz? ; ) At least a “C”, anyway, I hope!



          • fessdo on February 7, 2019 at 6:30 pm

            Dave,
            Still a bit confusing but are you saying that God has a S list and a U list from the beginning of time? So no matter how much you confess or believe in Jesus as your Lord and savior, if you’re not on Gods saved list from the beginning then you’re on the unsaved list and doomed for hell? With that kind of doctrine Jane has only a 50/50 chance getting out of hell for all her believing in Christ? If I believed that crazy doctrine I would join Jane as an atheist.
            Jane read John 3:16 and understand Jane you’re a who so ever.
            Please forget this other made up man’s doctrine,,, it’s Jesus who saves by grace thru faith.



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 8:02 pm

            Fessdo, different people require different approaches to respond to our exhortation to receive the gift of faith in Jesus. For some, such as myself, fear of “missing the boat” served as the motivation to earnestly, importunately beg Jesus to help me receive faith in Him. Others react to a gentler, more forgiving approach. God told me to write the things that I wrote to Jane. It is up to her to decide whether to sincerely ask Him for faith or stick to her atheistic views. God already knows what her fate will be. His Will is done. He knew everything, past, present and future, from before the beginning.
            John 8:58
            “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
            Sorry, ole buddy, but your threats of choosing atheism if God doesn’t meet your requirements of Him in your belief falls on deaf ears here. We are completely, totally at the mercy of God. I will say what He tells me to say, because He is The One who gives the gift of faith unto men (and women).
            In your own mortal, fallible mind, Jane has a 50/50 chance of being saved, based upon what I said to her. Where did you come up with that statistic?
            Actually, no one knows how many God will save. Certainly you and I don’t know. So, back to how this conversation began: Jane asked if people who believe in a different God than Jesus, etc., etc. will be condemned. So, what’s your answer, since you seem to have them all? Will God forgive, say, Muslims?
            Give Jane the answer she seeks, if you think you know everything about God.
            Jane, don’t listen to me. Listen to the Master of Wisdom, Fessdo. But still, Jane, I implore you to get down on your knees, admit you don’t know everything and ask Jesus to help you believe. Your eternal life is at stake here, truly I tell you. And if God wants you to believe in Him/Jesus (same thing), you will!
            Oh, and one more thing, brother Fessdo: God is not an Indian giver.
            Hebrews 13:5
            ” Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”
            We are instructed that there is an unforgivable sin, but I have not committed that sin, or at least, not to my knowledge, and that only thanks to the Charity, Mercy and Grace of God, and I don’t think that you have committed that unforgiveable sin, either. So, God’s promise of salvation remains as a rock of faith for both of us. I’d rejoice to share some fruit from The Tree of Life with you in Heaven, brother Fessdo, all praise, thanks and glory to Jesus, our only Lord and Savior.

            With all due respect and, of course, love for you, my brother by God’s Grace.

            Dave



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 8:13 pm

            Matthew 22:14
            “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

            Matthew 7:14
            “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

            1 Peter 4:17-19
            “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.”



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 8:32 pm

            Romans 9:14-16
            “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
            For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”



          • fessdo on February 7, 2019 at 9:06 pm

            Dave,
            Where do you dream up this stuff,,, “Jane, I implore you to get down on your knees, admit you don’t know everything and ask Jesus to help you believe” ? No where in any bible have I read that before receiving Jesus as your Lord you must get on your knees? If that was a prerequisite to being saved then I guess the people born without legs is on the “U” list.
            Wonder how God came up with the “S'” and “U” list, was it the tall people = unsaved and the short people= saved or the dark = ? and the light = ? or the brown eyes = ? and the green eyes = ? or the long hair =? and the short hair =???????
            2 Peter 3:9 Easy-to-Read Version The Lord is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning.



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 11:39 pm

            Fessdo, I saw you constantly argue with Gregg Powers. Now that Gregg isn’t here, you need to argue with someone, so why not me? Listen, you are entitled to your point of view and your beliefs, I’m fine with that. But, I’m not going to get into a pi$—- contest with you, because I learned from you and Gregg Powers that it is futile and non-productive. The things I say, let them with ears to hear take heed and if I spout a bunch of nonsense, let those with any sense ignore what I have to say. How’s that?
            So, you be the king of this forum and I hope you can bring many folks here to their senses or, even better, to the saving knowledge that Jesus is The Lord..

            See you here, there or in the air, brother.

            Dave



          • Son on February 7, 2019 at 11:54 pm

            And there is this quote from you, Fessdo: “So no matter how much you confess or believe in Jesus as your Lord and savior, if you’re not on Gods saved list from the beginning then you’re on the unsaved list and doomed for hell?”
            How idiotic can you get? If you confess and/or believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, YOU’RE SAVED! You were/are on “The List” of The Elect or you couldn’t believe in Him.
            Why should I have to spell everything out for you? You’re an ornery old cuss, ain’t ya?

            You wrote, “No where in any bible have I read that before receiving Jesus as your Lord you must get on your knees? If that was a prerequisite to being saved then I guess the people born without legs is on the “U” list.”
            How dense are you? Getting on one’s knees is a figure of speech. It symbolizes humility and sincere intent of the heart and mind of a person. It is the manner in which we should approach our Creator, Lord and Savior.
            Proverbs 22:4
            “By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.”
            Do you attempt to demean me because I tell you the truth? How many times have I heard YOU say THAT?!
            Lose the attitude, brother, and try to remember that we are on the same team.



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 12:02 am

            One last thing before I say goodnight, brother Fessdo:
            Aren’t you the one who was banging on the drum of “We are saved through faith alone. Good works is not a prerequisite of salvation.”? Remember Gregg Powers? then, why do you write, ” But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning.”
            Do you really think that you can stop sinning? Then, why do you need Jesus? To atone for your past sins?
            Matthew 7:5
            “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”



          • BibleStudent on February 8, 2019 at 6:05 am

            Hello sir, the idea of Calvinism and election is terrible mistake to have befallen the body of Christ.
            While I can answer your questions and help you grammatically consider ALL those bible scriptures you quoted, I’m afraid it’s not something a mere comment can cater for.

            I have no need to start an argument so if you are willing to learn what the Bible truly says, you can indicate interest. But let me leave these few verses that throws a major screw at calvinism

            John 3:16
            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life
            “whosoever” means – guess what – ANYBODY

            Also, if we can know the scope of the people who Jesus died for, we can know the scope of the people who can be saved

            1 John 2
            My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

            2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

            He was writing to believers, hence the distinction is vs 2,
            Jesus is not for ours (believers) only , but also for the whole world

            NOte, this doesn’t mean the whole world is saved, but salvation is available to everyone, yet it must be received

            11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

            12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

            It’s like if I buy out Apple, and announce on world-wide TV, that anyone that wants any Apple product should go to their warehouse, if a man decides not to go, it’s not my fault, it’s not that I haven’t paid for it.
            He just refused (didn’t receive it)

            So, just as a foretaste

            JESUS HAS DIED FOR ALL MEN, HE HAS PAID THE SACRIFICE FOR ALL MEN, BUT ALL MEN AREN’T SAVED

            and the way a man ordains himself to eternal life, is to hear and believe.
            It’s the man’s action

            Good day
            Abraham



          • fessdo on February 8, 2019 at 8:17 am

            Abraham,
            You are so RIGHT, it’s good to know I’m not alone here. Don’t be to hard on old Dave he’s a good old boy but gets a little tore up if he doesn’t get his pats on the back daily or if you don’t agree with his doctrine to the letter. So if you get called an idiot by him just turn the other cheek.

            Truly,
            Fessdo



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 11:35 am

            Jane, are you following this thread?

            Dave



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 11:40 am

            BibleStudent,
            You call me a Calvinist, and perhaps I am. It is where God has led me over 50 years. If you believe differently than I, praise God that you believe in Him, anyway. I won’t argue with you. I realize that it would be useless.

            God’s Peace to you.

            Dave



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 11:47 am

            ” Don’t be to hard on old Dave he’s a good old boy but gets a little tore up if he doesn’t get his pats on the back daily or if you don’t agree with his doctrine to the letter.”
            Ha ha, Fessdo, I still love your sense of humor. At least, you seem to show a little kindness, perhaps even love for me, in your message to Abraham, who, incidentally, I suspect is one and the same as you, using a different screen name. There still may be some hope for you, son. lol
            I doubt you and I will ever fully agree on all aspects of our faith in Jesus. Doesn’t bother me. Thanks to The Grace of God, we both believe that Jesus Is The Lord, and that is what is most important.
            See you around, brother.

            Dave



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 11:51 am

            BibleStudent, you invited me to show interest in what you had to say, so please allow me to ask you a question: Do you believe that EVERYBODY will be saved in the end?

            TIA, sir.

            Dave



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 2:32 pm

            Hey, guys, I read something interesting today and thought I’d share it with you. Whatcha think?

            Reformed theologians, along with other Protestants, believe salvation from punishment for sin is to be given to all those who have faith in Christ.[58] Faith is not purely intellectual, but involves trust in God’s promise to save.[59] Protestants do not hold there to be any other requirement for salvation, but that faith alone is sufficient.[58]
            Justification is the part of salvation where God pardons the sin of those who believe in Christ. It is historically held by Protestants to be the most important article of Christian faith, though more recently it is sometimes given less importance out of ecumenical concerns.[60] People are not on their own able even to fully repent of their sin or prepare themselves to repent because of their sinfulness. Therefore, justification is held to arise solely from God’s free and gracious act.[61]
            Sanctification is the part of salvation in which God makes the believer holy, by enabling them to exercise greater love for God and for other people.[62] The good works accomplished by believers as they are sanctified are considered to be the necessary outworking of the believer’s salvation, though they do not cause the believer to be saved.[59] Sanctification, like justification, is by faith, because doing good works is simply living as the son of God one has become.[63]



          • BibleStudent on February 8, 2019 at 3:38 pm

            Hello Dave

            I’m not Fressdo with another name. I’m actually African and stumbled upon this site.

            I wouldn’t have responded at all, but I actually just finished listening to my Pastor on a teaching series answering the questions on “predestination ” “foreknowledge ” “election ”

            And famous theologies like Calvinism, universalism and the new reformed theology.

            Every single verse that you quoted was well explained.

            And I’ll take my time next week to explain each one of them

            To answer your question

            No! I do not believe everyone will be saved.

            Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

            This is clear enough. If you don’t believe, you’re damned already

            But it’s not God that determines who believes , it’s men.

            1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

            See the word “will”

            It’s more than just intent, it’s a disposition.

            2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

            That’s what he wants.

            Everyone saved.

            If he has already determined those who go to hell.

            Then those guys have a pass.

            They can say “I wasn’t saved because God didn’t want me to”

            That defeats the entire thought of the Bible.

            Why are men not saved today??

            Quite a number of reasons.

            They’ve not heard the gospel for one.

            Or they heard and didn’t believe

            Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

            Look at it, they judged themselves unworthy,

            How, reading in context showed us they didn’t want to hear Paul.
            it’s the direct opposite of what Luke said in the later verse about those who ordained themselves to eternal life.

            How?

            They said, “come preach to us”

            Ordained in the Greek means to prepare yourself.

            So they prepared themselves by allowing Paul to preach to them.

            Just like those folks in Berea Acts 17

            The received the word (allowed it to be preached)

            Then they searched the scriptures and believed.

            The Jews in Acts 13 didn’t want to here and that way they were “preparing” or ordaining themselves to destructiom

            I’m sorry I’m not including the Bible texts, I’m using my phone now and I’m not able to freely do all I want.

            But back to your question.

            Like I said earlier. Salvation is FOR ALL MEN.

            but all men aren’t saved.

            Why?

            Because they’ve not believed, it has nothing to do with God.

            God showed that he “wills” that all men be saved.
            How?

            Jesus’death was for the whole world.

            Again, in knowing the scope of Jesus’sacrifice, we know those who “can” be saved — ALL MEN

            Rest assured I have no desire to argue also.

            I almost always avoid these conversations. But I just felt led to speak with you sir.

            Like I said earlier Dave.

            I’m making a proposition.

            Give me time and a listening ear.

            And I’ll clear out all doubts that you have concerning the Bible.

            Yours in Christ.

            Abraham



          • Son on February 8, 2019 at 4:38 pm

            Brother Abraham, I appreciate your taking time to respond to me and also your offer to share your knowledge of The Bible and Jesus/God with me. I certainly don’t think I know everything, although I feel that I know what God wants me to know at this point in my life. Surely, I respect and value your counsel if there are things I need to understand that you can explain to me, under my assumption that God is using you as a conduit to bring me knowledge in The Holy Spirit of Jesus.
            I would ask you one question, for starters: Do you believe that God knows EVERYTHING, past, present and future? Do you think that there is anything not known to God?

            Thank you for your fellowship, my brother. Stay blessed in The Holy Name of Jesus.

            Dave



          • fessdo on February 9, 2019 at 6:13 pm

            Dave,
            Times like this make you just want to listen to the song Genesis – No Reply At All ?
            But during the dry times I love the song Doobie Brothers – Jesus Is Just Alright.
            Nice to have you tube sometimes when people aren’t cooperating.



          • BibleStudent on February 11, 2019 at 3:23 am

            Hello Brother Dave and Brother Fessdo

            Sorry for being inactive, I actually left a message on Saturday, stating that I won’t be available till Monday, but for some reason, my phone didn’t send the message.

            So, I didn’t run off, and I’ll definitely respond to as many questions as I possibly can.

            One of the things I said in the “now-lost” message was that I’d very much appreciate if we saw the Bible as the final authority in our discussion.

            I mean, if I knew something to be true before, and after careful study of the scriptures (convincingly so) I find that it’s not true, I must be sincere enough to accept it

            No sentiments whatsoever.

            Also, we should respect each other’s opinion, not accept it without proof, but respect it in the sense that I mustn’t make any conjectures until I’ve heard the other person out well.

            I can ask questions where not clear, but mustn’t assume what the other person hasn’t said.

            Definitely no insults also.

            I didn’t write the Bible, I just believe every word in there as God’s word for me,

            All these will make for a civilized study into God’s word, much like the Apostles had

            Acts 17:2
            As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
            NIV

            I’ll start off later on today… or might just put all answers in a word document and send us a link to it later (that would take a longer time, perhaps days). But I’ll let you know by the end of today (in my own world it’s 9:20am)

            Yours in Christ
            Abraham



          • BibleStudent on February 11, 2019 at 9:06 am

            Hello Brothers

            I have isolated all the comments from this referenced comment up until my previous comment

            I have them now in a 42-page word document, and I have now decided to read them all together, understand everyone’s mind and answer all issues raised together.

            This will remove the likely back-and-forth toggle that might want to come up.

            This will mean that I won’t be posting here for a while, but I’ll send a link to a file once I am done with all of the document.

            Thank you brothers.

            Yours in Christ
            Abraham



          • Son on February 11, 2019 at 11:22 am

            Abraham, I have a question for you.
            My wife and I are retired and our income is probably 150% less than it was when we were working. The past two or three weeks, the church we have been attending has been beating the drum for not only tithe giving, but donations in addition to tithing. It sounds to me like the church is having some financial problems. Also, their music ministry is making a lot of noise, not music. It is positively ANNOYING rather than ANNOINTING. I’m considering dropping out of church, even though I’ve met some people there whom I like and with whom my wife and I could possibly develop a friendship relationship. I’ve only attended this church for perhaps 6 weeks, so it’s not as though I’m deeply attached to it. Should I be upfront with the pastor and ask him some tough questions about the church finances and why the fund-raising push, or do you think I should run away from the situation? Thanks.

            Dave



          • Son on February 11, 2019 at 11:23 am

            Stu, got a question for you.
            My wife and I are retired and our income is probably 150% less than it was when we were working. The past two or three weeks, the church we have been attending has been beating the drum for not only tithe giving, but donations in addition to tithing. It sounds to me like the church is having some financial problems. Also, their music ministry is making a lot of noise, not music. It is positively ANNOYING rather than ANNOINTING. I’m considering dropping out of church, even though I’ve met some people there whom I like and with whom my wife and I could possibly develop a friendship relationship. I’ve only attended this church for perhaps 6 weeks, so it’s not as though I’m deeply attached to it. Should I be upfront with the pastor and ask him some tough questions about the church finances and why the fund-raising push, or do you think I should run away from the situation? I trust your advise, my brother. Thanks.

            Dave



          • Son on February 11, 2019 at 1:46 pm

            Abraham, thanks for your offer to provide counsel regarding the material you referenced in your latest response to me/us (brothers in Christ). Please understand that it may be time wasted if your intent is to “de-program” me from my Calvinist ideology. However, if you feel it is service to The Lord to do such and therefore choose to make an offering to Him by sharing your biblical viewpoint(s) with me and others who participate in this forum, by all means feel free to do so. You are not wasting your time and energy when you are serving Jesus, regardless of the results. If you find that you don’t have the time to devote to what you have proposed, I understand and do not consider it an abandonment of our fellowship in Him. As long as we can say, “Jesus Is The Lord”, we shall always be brothers.

            Your brother in Christ,

            Dave



          • Son on February 11, 2019 at 7:13 pm

            Genesis, Fessdo.. Like you said about Jane.



          • BibleStudent on February 12, 2019 at 6:21 am

            Hello brother Dave.

            I believe Brother Stu has given you a answer you seem to be satisfied with, as regards church and giving.

            I would not like to talk on the subject of tithe, as that would veer us off into a very large chasm

            Yet, I would like to state that giving in the NT always has adjectives to it that we must pay attention to

            the words WILLINGLY AND SACRIFICIALLY

            Not giving as a commandment

            You’ll find that EVERY, and that is EVERY, of the Apostles taught giving in their Epistles.

            It’s such a major theme in the body, that Our Salvation is called God GIVING
            John 3:16
            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            KJV

            He “gave” him to die for us.

            Rom 8:32
            He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
            KJV

            JESUS Also is said to have GIVEN his life

            1 John 3:16
            Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
            KJV

            Matt 20:28
            Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
            KJV

            He came to give his life to us (hence at salvation, we “receive” his life, we don’t “give” our life to Christ…… AT SALVATION)

            NOTE: How Jesus gave his life, willingly…..
            John 10:17-18
            Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

            18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
            KJV

            He laid it down, willingly, and because of that, the Father loves him
            Please notice the flow, I’ll get on it shortly

            HENCE, Every believer is expected to take a cue from this

            Note that Jesus wasn’t “programmed” to die, (like he had no choice, no he did)

            Matt 26:39
            O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
            KJV

            He made this same prayer two more times

            Hebrews says he had to learn obedience in the things he suffered, laying down his life.

            Heb 5:8
            Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
            KJV

            For him to obey, means he had a choice, a will not to obey

            From this we learn a vital truth
            If God did not even command (in the sense of force) his own son (the firstbegotten) to give his life, it shows God will never, NEVER command (force) his other children to give

            He however commands us still. How?? by showing us an example..

            1 Peter 2:21
            For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
            KJV

            His model, now becomes our own

            John 13:15
            For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
            KJV
            He’s not teaching feet washing here, but how he stooped low, to SERVE us (Phil 2: 5-8)
            So he’s teaching SERVICE

            It is at this point you now GIVE your life, you give your life to serve
            1 John 3:16
            Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
            KJV

            It’s the life he gave you, you give it back in SERVICE to his body (Gal 2:20)
            It’s what he (Jesus) called “taking up your cross” in the synoptic gospels, the term NEVER refers to salvation

            It show’s something about God’s character, he is not the ALL OUT FORCE, COMMANDMENT-HURLING BEING we sometimes make him out to be.

            When God will have us do something, he definitely makes sure he enables us to do it.

            SO LET’S SEE HOW THE APOSTLES TAUGHT GIVING
            2 Cor 8-9 is the prime model
            And you’ll find “willingness” scattered everywhere

            2 Cor 8:2
            riches of their liberality.
            liberality a word that implies freedom, he called it “the grace of God bestowed them” in Vs 1, the grace is the endowment, ability to give
            3
            willing of themselves;

            12
            a willing mind,

            He carries the same thought into chapter 9

            2 Cor 9:7
            Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
            KJV

            In the Greek, the actual phrase is “God loves cheerful giving”, not grudgingly or out of necessity (as commanded), but cheerfully.

            We see Philippi as an example of that in Philippians 4

            Acts 2:45
            And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
            KJV

            Without being forced to, because the Apostles must have shown them how Jesus gave his life for us, and that spurred them to give.

            Not surprising, since it’s a grace given to all believers in the Spirit. It’s not IMPOSSIBLE for the believer

            Gal 5:22
            But the fruit of the Spirit is love, … goodness, ….

            He put that same kind of love in us, which shows itself in goodness, (and all other fruits of the Spirit)

            2 Cor 8:9
            For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
            KJV

            This has nothing to do with physical riches. It’s not story, that Jesus wasn’t physically rich,
            Rather talks about his sharing what he had with us — that glory that he had—- fellowship with the Father.

            I have taken this long route to explain God’s character so I can be able to say this

            The way God will have us give is to be an example to us

            And he gave willingly, freely, without us asking for it, hence the term GRACE

            But he also gave “HIS ONLY”, John 3:16

            So earning 150% less is not an excuse to not give

            2 Cor 8, the Macedonian church gave in their “DEEP poverty”…..

            So Paul in 1 Cor 16, will instruct to give as you have prospered – as much as you have, sacrificially

            So, Just like Jesus, just like our Father, we have expected attitudes when we give
            CHEERFULLY, WILLINGLY, THANKFULLY, SACRIFICIALLY, LOVINGLY.

            Not out of a commandment, or force, or shame of the Pastor calling us out,

            We give because just like our Father gave, we are BORN-GIVERS, not afraid to give our all, to all (especially those of the household of faith)

            Matt 5:44-45

            44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

            45 –because you are– children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
            KJV

            In giving, we are just like our FATHER

            Yours in Christ
            Abraham



          • Son on February 12, 2019 at 1:11 pm

            Hi brother Abraham,
            Thank you for your wise and considered counsel. Our brother Fessdo also gave me some good advice.
            Simply, I have my own financial obligations to which it is my responsibility to attend. God is not moving me to willingly give money that I need to live to a church I’ve attended for about two months, especially in light of the fact that this campaign to donate “tithes” and also “offerings” just began the last two Sundays. The pastor didn’t even mention the reason why the church wants more money or what use they have in mind for the money. I could give to every bum that asks me for money and still be donating to the poor and needy, but I myself would soon go broke and become poor and needy myself. It is not a lack of faith in God, but He gave me the power of reason to make the best decisions I can make for myself and my loved ones, who depend upon my decisions for their peace of mind and feeling of security. I am by no means denying God His due. Everything I have is His. He can move my heart to give when He wills to do so and I believe that I will obey Him if and when He moves me in that way. As I said before, right now I feel as though I am being tempted by the enemy to choose between giving (honoring the church) or not giving (failure on my part to heed the request of the church). It is a dilemma for me, but I will listen to His Holy Spirit and do what pleases God. He has given me faith that I will receive strength and inspiration from Him to do His Will. I would stop attending church entirely, but I would miss the fellowship that I share with my brethren at church. That is my dilemma.

            Thanks again, bro, for your caring enough to give me your wise and studied counsel.

            God bless you.

            Dave



      • Atheist Man on February 15, 2019 at 6:26 am

        To Fessdo, Well i have a very excellent reason to really hate God since he never came through for me. Even at church unfortunately most women are very rude and unfriendly when you try to start a conversation with them. And i am a very good man by the way that just wanted to have a normal life just like so many other married men and women that have their life so very complete. And yes which i was married at one time, and i was a very good husband that was very caring, loving, understanding, and very committed to her as well. But you know what, she cheated on me by sleeping around with all kinds of men before she was caught. And this really devastated me since i really thought at that time, i had finally met a good woman to spend my life with to have a family. And i was the very faithful husband by the way at that time which still never meant nothing to her. And she even had the nerve to say to me, lets have an open marriage. Well that is when i told her to just get out of my life which i will be filing for divorce immediately, and i really did since i found a very good lawyer and i was divorced in just three weeks. And at my age now meeting a good woman again isn’t really easy at all nowadays for me since they have really changed since the old days, and most women back then were very old fashioned and real ladies which made love very easy to find at that time as well. I know friends going through the very same thing right now too, and well at least i am not alone. Most women today unfortunately are just running wild and sleeping around which they will never be able to settle down with only one man. Peace.

    • pradeep ivon on February 4, 2019 at 9:05 pm

      Atheist man do not keep this attitude its evil accusing our creator! agree we all have our own opinions about the conventional church that we see today but remember history had many servants of God who kept single either by choice or through any circumstances yet they remained faithful in their service & worship to the one & only supreme creator of the universe God Almighty. I pray and seek repentance for your words.

    • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 9:40 pm

      Dave. They’ve shut me down cause I used the name Jesus to much

      • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 9:42 pm

        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
        I don’t care what they may say
        I don’t care what they may do
        I don’t care what they may say
        Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
        Jesus is just alright
        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
        I don’t care what they may know
        I don’t care where they may go
        I don’t care what they may know
        Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
        Jesus, he’s my friend; Jesus, he’s my friend
        He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land
        Jesus, he’s my friend
        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
        Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright

        • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 9:45 pm

          can’t hardlllllly get thruuuuuu sorry but Jesusssssssssss is what you neeeeeeeeeeeeee

  54. Elane on February 4, 2019 at 1:47 am

    What happens when the church you loved and wanted to serve with all your heart turns out to be a rapist and a thief. One who takes away employment and homes and basic needs of life? What happens when everything not some things but everything you have ever known of church is a lie then what ? I am not speaking of precious feelings being hurt or some other minor offense I am talking about the complete destruction of people’s lives ? The bible says How can you say you love God whom you have never seen but do not love your brother and the TRUTH is not in you. My estimation of that TRUTH is Jesus ( I am the way the TRUTH and the life) God is love . He who does not know this does not know God. It is pretty simple actually

    • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 8:51 am

      Elane,
      You thank God for giving you the Spirit of truth as your helper. Just think how bad it is for the ones who keep going to churches, they’re like baby birds swallowing anything and everything because they don’t know the Truth,,, Jesus. They think they know Jesus but they never did, they just go with the crowd and 99% of the time the crowd is wrong. Hang in there cause there’s life after church and a good life if you keep your eye on Jesus.
      John 14:16-18 Easy-to-Read Version I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper to be with you forever. The Helper is the Spirit of truth. The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.

  55. Marko on February 1, 2019 at 7:07 am

    Well i really hate Church to begin with since it always caters to the married people instead of us single people. Very unfair as it is since many of us were really punished by God to be single, even when many of us never wanted to be in the first place to begin with. God is very evil to do this to us, and we really have No Reason at all to blame ourselves anyway for many of us men that really wanted to be married with a family. It was a real shame that God didn’t create women like the good old days when they were so very old fashioned and a lot easier to meet compared to the ones out there nowadays that really Aren’t that nice at all unfortunately. Even at Church most women are just very unfriendly to meet with a very serious Attitude Problem as well, and they just Don’t have any good manners at all with a very horrible personality as well. God what in the world have you done to these women today?

    • fessdo on February 1, 2019 at 8:16 am

      Marko,
      Church is a place to go to worship and praise God for all his love and goodness that He showers on us even though we don’t deserve it. Some how you have confused churches and bars, this may shock you but people who use a church to pick up girls is a bit strange and most women don’t want a strange boy friend. Also people who don’t take the blame for their screwed up life, is a bit strange.
      Fessdo

      • Marko on February 4, 2019 at 10:16 am

        Fessdo, Imagine having women Cursing at us for many of us men that really did have this happened to us already unfortunately. And i know a few friends that had it happened to them as well. A very bad time unfortunately for many of us good single men really looking for love these days. And it is the women today that are certainly a lot different than the old days too. This is a very excellent reason why many of us good single men are still single today as i speak since we really should have been married already with our own family that many of us still Don’t have right now, even as i speak which makes it a real shame for us since we were just born at the very Wrong time. Have you noticed the change in the women today compared to the old days? I guess you haven’t. Now i can see how very Blessed And Lucky our family members were when they met each other in those days with No Trouble at all either. Many women back then were raised by very good parents when they were growing up which made all the difference in the world. And today many parents just don’t care at all since they really are so out of control now unfortunately. The world has certainly changed today compared to the past. I wished that i could have been born in the past since i myself would have been all settled now. And most women just have no manners and personality at all either nowadays which makes it real very sad. Peace.

        • fessdo on February 4, 2019 at 10:33 am

          Marko,
          Oh you want a wife like they had years ago?
          Like Hosea?

          Hosea 1 Easy-to-Read Version
          1 This is the Lord’s message that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the time that Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah, and Jeroboam son of Joash was king of Israel.
          2 This was the Lord’s first message to Hosea. The Lord said, “Go, marry a prostitute who has had children as a result of her prostitution. Do this because the people in this country have acted like prostitutes—they have been unfaithful to the Lord.”

    • Stu on February 1, 2019 at 8:29 am

      Dear Marko,
      Our brother Paul probably suffered more than anyone, yet he said that he was content whether well fed or hungry.

      The irony that I just read the following excerpt by Pastor W.A. Criswell:

      “My predecessor at the First Baptist Church of Dallas was Dr. George Truett. For a full year before he died, Dr. Truett suffered agonizingly. He was allergic to all pain-killing drugs. Any narcotic would make him deathly sick and nauseated. So he suffered excruciating pain for a full year. Many who loved him would ask me again and again why it was that Dr. Truett, the great man of God and the incomparable preacher of the Word, had to suffer so much for a full year. But Dr. Truett had a secret. His faith in the Lord and in the goodness of God was gigantic. He repeated many times that which he preached so often, “Not my will, but Thine be done.” In that faith and in that yielded submissiveness, the great pastor died.

      That is what it is to be a Christian. Anyone can sing songs and be happy when all is well. But what happens when the dark day comes, when the valley stretches endlessly ahead, when illness racks, and when the bed is itself an affliction? That is when we glorify God, singing songs in the night, trusting in the goodness of the Lord. We take it to God in prayer, and ask the pastor and people who believe in the Lord to pray. We use every means God has given us—the doctor, the pharmacist, the hospital—then having prayed, having done all that we know how to do, yielded, submissive, we leave the final verdict in God’s hands. If it is God’s will that we live, may we praise the Lord in the gift of days. If it is God’s will that our lives be closed like a book and the last chapter be written, then may we have the faith to believe that God will heal us over there.”

      Grumbling about our circumstances will not solve them.

    • Son on February 1, 2019 at 12:17 pm

      Marko, church is a place to worship and attend to our desire to be with Jesus (“when two or three are gathered in my name, I am there also”). Personally, I can’t think of any other reason to go to church.
      Have you tried internet dating sites? That is the modern way to gradually become friends with a woman who may turn out to be more than a friend, once she is comfortable enough with you to take the next step in the relationship. There are plenty of lonely women who seek a man’s companionship. There are also a lot of freaky guys out there, any woman will tell you, so it’s not always easy to “break the ice”. Moreover, if God wants you to be with a woman, He will provide for you. Try trusting Him for it.
      Also, be careful what you wish for, my friend. Some women you don’t even want to mess with, regardless of looks.
      No one ever said life was gonna be easy, my friend. At least, we have God’s promise of a perfect eternity in Paradise, thanks to Jesus. What would we do without Him? We’d be royally screwed! “Life’s a bitch and then you die,” right? Praise Jesus!
      At the risk of dating myself, I’m afraid I’m sounding like “Dear Abby” here, but hopefully I’ve helped..
      Wishing you best of luck with the women and blessing from God.

      Dave

  56. Evangeline on January 31, 2019 at 1:43 am

    Beautiful! Thank you!
    Re-affirmation of some things helps.

    • Josh on January 31, 2019 at 12:32 pm

      People are completely batshit crazy. See proof below.

      • fessdo on January 31, 2019 at 1:08 pm

        John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.

  57. Mansha on January 23, 2019 at 2:23 am

    Believe in Holy Spirit! the church as the body of Christ made up of believers in Jesus Christ, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

    • fessdo on January 24, 2019 at 8:15 am

      Dave,
      I thank you for helping me to get back right with God. This shows that a person can almost know the bible from cover to cover and still allow sin to beset them (Hebrews 12:1). As I read your words the Holy Spirit flooded my mind with the love that God wanted me to show to others as He had shown toward me. Then the evil one started condemning me for missing the mark but I quickly repented to God, confessed my sin and got my life back in the Spirit.
      Romans 8:34 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
      Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us.
      and for good measure I read one more for the devil

      Romans 8:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
      So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty. That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death. The law was without power because it was made weak by our sinful selves. But God did what the law could not do: He sent his own Son to earth with the same human life that everyone else uses for sin. God sent him to be an offering to pay for sin. So God used a human life to destroy sin.

      Dave I ask you and others here to forgive me and I thank everyone for their support.

      Fessdo.

      • Stu on January 24, 2019 at 9:20 am

        Pretty humbling to ask for forgiveness, publicly. I once shared that if someone were to ask me only for forgiveness, I would say no, unless I were to ask him for forgiveness as well; we are both sinners. God loves to exalt the humble. 🙂

        • Son on January 24, 2019 at 1:50 pm

          Amen, brother Stu.
          Phillipians 2:3
          “Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.”
          Romans 12:16
          “Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.”
          James 4:10
          “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

          God’s Peace and Grace to you.

          Dave

      • Son on January 24, 2019 at 12:51 pm

        Fessdo, I have nothing to forgive you for, my brother. You have set me straight on a number of occasions on issues regarding my relationship with Jesus.
        Revelation 12:11
        “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

        His Peace to you, brother Fessdo!

        Dave

      • Katie on January 24, 2019 at 11:07 pm

        Honestly, Fessdo, I commend you for allowing God to always humble you! When we ask God for forgiveness He will forgive us remember that. And I can relate to you in this, asking God for forgiveness cuz I’m a sinner. Also remember God has forgiven you if you are in Christ and will remember your sins no more. I too need to remind myself of this truth and promise.

      • Son on January 25, 2019 at 12:41 pm

        Fessdo, you evidently have a music background and enjoy music so I’m turning you on to a beautiful hymn that glorifies Jesus: “OVERCOME” by Jeremy Camp. Google it and listen on YouTube.

        With His Blessing, my brother.

        Dave

        • Son on January 25, 2019 at 12:49 pm

          REVELATION 12:11
          “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

          • fessdo on January 26, 2019 at 9:00 am

            Dave,
            Thanks for your kindness but like Moses I’ve fled to the wilderness for a season.
            Fessdo



          • Son on January 26, 2019 at 11:32 am

            Mind if I join you, ole buddy?

            Dave



          • Son on January 26, 2019 at 11:33 am

            Guess I’ll see you here, there or in the air.



    • jane adams on January 29, 2019 at 9:02 pm

      ugh i couldn’t even get all the way through your very predictable and christian rhetoric. you are beyond conditioned to think the way that you do and how naive of you to think that god would create you with such simplicity. child, please challenge yourself more than status quo and understand that no matter what you write or think or believe, that’s all it is…an opinion… because last time i checked, none of us, know what the facts are. that is the only fact in this whole garbage! have a good one.. or blessings, or whatever you need to read to feel safe…

      • fessdo on January 29, 2019 at 9:22 pm

        jane adams,
        Facts vs Faith?
        Jane which is your choose?

        • Son on January 30, 2019 at 12:01 am

          Brother Fessdo, stay in the wilderness. There is nothing but evil here anymore. I’m finished here.

          Your bro Dave

          • fessdo on January 30, 2019 at 9:01 pm

            Dave,
            I tried real hard to stay away but when the Holy Ghost wakes you at 3am with the words of Hebrews 11:1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
            “Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see”
            then I know I’m own the right track. When jane adams stated “know what the facts are. that is the only fact in this whole garbage!”
            Jane is looking for facts and logic but to see Jesus it must be by faith not facts. Hebrews 11:6 King James Version (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
            Jane is putting her hope in what she can see, smell, taste, feel. Hebrews 11:1 King James Version (KJV) “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”
            But God’s way isn’t the world’s way and we know who’s the prince of this world.
            Ephesians 2:2 King James Version (KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
            God wants Jane to walk by faith not by sight and He’s using me to tell her, I hope she will cause I need my sleep.



    • I am on January 30, 2019 at 10:48 pm

      Do none of you read between the lines im just shaking my head at this. Christines ste to blame for the Christian crusades and all witch hunts

      • fessdo on January 30, 2019 at 11:29 pm

        I am,
        Here’s what I read between
        line1.
        line2.
        line3.
        line4.
        line5.
        line6.
        line7.
        line8.
        line9.
        and guess what’s between line 10.

        Wow between the lines says so much.

        • Son on January 31, 2019 at 12:39 am

          There are many things in the world that are difficult, if not impossible to explain. How about the Spanish Inquisition, while you’re on the subject of anomalies with the Christian Faith? I don’t understand it all, the many things, the sharks, birth defects, etc., etc. but God told me what I needed to hear. I hope this can be of help to those of you who question and don’t understand, in the same way that I felt confused:
          John 20″29
          “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
          We, who are saved by Grace through The Holy Will of God in Jesus, His Only Begotten Son and our Savior,
          are given Faith to believe that God has a reason for everything that has happened, happens and will happen.
          That is the ENTIRE ISSUE here: FAITH.
          Ephesians 2:8
          “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”
          Truth here, brethren.

      • Son on January 31, 2019 at 12:23 am

        Fessdo, my dear bro, how many scriptures tell us that only God can save somebody. I’m sure you are familiar with them. You can talk until your blue in the face, but The Truth remains the same: God has pre-elected us unto salvation..
        Remember when I told you about, “Night has fallen, Lewis.”? He decided upon the Elect (and The Lost) from before the beginning.
        2 Timothy 1:9
        “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”
        John 15:16
        “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain”
        John 6″44
        “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
        Pity them who are not on “The List”. Some of them truly wish to be saved, but they are bound in their misguided deal.
        And, ALWAYS remember to be grateful and humble, because HIS GIFT to you is that you are on “The List”. All thanks to Jesus, who is our Lord, Savior and Inseparable Brother.
        2 Peter 2:12
        “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption”
        Never forget our authority over evil, given to us by GOD:
        Revelation 12:11
        ” And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

        Much love and respect for you, my brother.

        Your bro Dave

        • fessdo on January 31, 2019 at 9:01 am

          Dave,
          Old Billy Graham wasted a lot of words then? I’ll tell you a little secret, when I answer these people who are allowing satan to speak thru them I try to throw in the name Jesus as much as possible. I think Jesus should have at lest equal air time here. I will confess years ago my focus was on getting everyone saved but now my focus is on Jesus. But you never know some sinner that God has been working on to get born again may read what I wrote and use that as a confirmation. If God can use a dumb donkey to talk to somebody then maybe He can use an old back woods American boy.
          Numbers 22:28 Easy-to-Read Version Then the Lord caused the donkey to speak. The donkey said to Balaam, “Why are you angry at me? What have I done to you? You have hit me three times!”

          • Son on January 31, 2019 at 12:42 pm

            Fessdo, ole pal, I hope you’re not calling me and Billy Graham donkeys. lol
            What man can know the mind of God? If you feel as though you are making a difference and pleasing God with your contributions here, God bless you. You have certainly given me some valuable insights. God’s Will is done.
            Night has fallen, Fessdo, and there’s nothing we can do about it. You’re either on The List or not. mho, fwiw

            Your friend and brother Dave



  58. talitha cumi on January 23, 2019 at 12:35 am

    FESSDO: A silly screen name for a very arrogant and psychotic blogger on here who targets women with insults. He can’t debate; all he can do is revile and accuse the godly of being ungodly. He has a very high opinion of himself (“I have a good heart”, he writes in one post). May God the Lord have mercy on this man’s dark soul. BTW if you are seeking intelligent repartee on this blog, move on. There is very, very little worth reading.

    • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 8:17 am

      talitha cumi,
      What can wash away your sins?
      Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

      • Jesus's Boyfriend on January 28, 2019 at 4:13 pm

        Do you expect someone to drink his blood? When, in fact, they could be drinking other things of his 😉 <3 For that would not be sinning, it would be Acceptance. Accept the love for Jesus your thirst has. He will quench it and save you.

    • Son on January 23, 2019 at 2:25 pm

      Who is “seeking intelligent repartee on this blog”, Talitha? Speaking personally, I am seeking to grow in The Spirit of Jesus Christ. That is why I am here and, I believe, what we should all be doing here.
      1 Corinthians 13
      “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
      Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
      Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
      But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”

      I ask you, Lord Jesus, to bless my sister Talitha with your spirit of Charity toward her brethren.

      With His Love, my sister.

      Dave

  59. talitha cumi on January 22, 2019 at 7:50 pm

    CAVEAT EMPTOR: There is a man on here by the name of ‘Fessdo’ who makes rude and inappropriate comments to people. He accused me of being a child of the devil. He has written rude things to others but that comment to me takes the cake. I guess he projects his own insecurities and spiritual issues on others, but he should not be tolerated.

    • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 8:46 pm

      Talitha,
      Galatians 4:16 King James Version (KJV)
      Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 9:00 pm

      Talitha,
      Luke 13:32 Easy-to-Read Version
      Jesus said to them, “Go tell that fox, ‘Today and tomorrow I am forcing demons out of people and finishing my work of healing. Then, the next day, the work will be finished.’

      Is calling someone “a fox” rude?

      • talitha cumi on January 23, 2019 at 12:10 am

        You’re a troll and you need to really be careful how you handle the Word because you are also an heretic. Don’t bother writing distorted scripture in my direction, ignoramus. And, you compare your stupid post re: Herod to the words of Jesus Christ? What arrogant blasphemy. You targeted me because I am educated and know how to present my case, whatever the case may be. I picture you as a drunk; unattractive, slovenly, disrespectful, lower spectrum intellectually, not saved by Christ, and an accuser of the brethren. You’re probably on the internet all day because you don’t work. How much porn do you watch? You don’t really like women, especially smart ones.
        You started it up with the blogger named Koo also; a horrible comment about cremation. I am going to report you to the webmaster. LOL! You DO need a kindergarten easy to read baby bible because you are unable to comprehend the King’s English!

        • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 8:09 am

          taliha?
          Good morning hun, I think I’m in love here I just love a gal you don’t hold back with what she says. I have had people cuss, spit, and even swing at me when I say the word Jesus, there’s something about that name the makes devil filled people go off. I can always tell a Christian by the way they handle an insult. People who are born again are dead in Christ
          (Colossians 3:2-4 Living Bible 2. Let heaven fill your thoughts; don’t spend your time worrying about things down here. 3. You should have as little desire for this world as a dead person does. Your real life is in heaven with Christ and God. 4. And when Christ who is our real life comes back again, you will shine with him and share in all his glories.)
          so Tal you can not insult a dead person. I beg you read about Jesus, study about Jesus, ask Jesus to come into you heart and be saved. If you need some pointers here don’t be a shamed to ask we all are ignorant about something .
          Have a nice day,
          Fessdo

          • Goldie on January 23, 2019 at 4:55 pm

            @Fudso:
            “People who are born again are dead in Christ”…..HUH? WHAT? You actually write crap like this and expect true Christians to swallow it…..unbelievable! People who are born again are dead to SIN, not Christ! We who are born-again are made spiritually ALIVE by the regeneration of the indwelling Holy Ghost. I won’t call you ‘brother’, that would be a mistake. Get a life, you and ‘Son’. I think you’re both the same person. Sound doctrine is evidently not your forte, lol. Waste case! After reading your comments (I could only stomach 30 or so of them) I have to agree that you need to be kicked off here. Doesn’t Carey look at his blogs? He should so he will see that you hang onto this forum because, like the other lady said, you’re a troll and cause dissension.



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 5:37 pm

            Goldie,
            I’m sure you have swallow more than this in your life, just how big of a gal are you, hope you can take it?

            Fessdo



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 5:52 pm

            Goldie,
            I’m betting you real educated like taliha if so there is where the problem is. It very difficult for a well educated person to understand the trinity and I haven’t the time to explain it to you. God, Holy ghost, Jesus = same.
            Colossians 3:2-4 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
            2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.
            3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.
            4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.

            Bottom line Goldie get born again!!! Jesus is waiting,
            Praise the name of JESUS



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 6:15 pm

            Fessdo, turn the other cheek. Remember, this ain’t the Jerry Springer show, yet.
            Matthew 5:44
            “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”
            Romans 12:14-21
            “Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
            Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
            Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
            Ephesians 6:11-19
            “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
            And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel”

            Dave



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 6:23 pm

            Dave,
            Thanks, sometimes it can be pain staking to let them that have let satan use, them to be shown who is running (or ruining)their life. Sometimes you have to call a fox a fox. But in the end Jesus the name above ever name wins.



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 6:26 pm

            Dave,
            Have you noticed that this blog is so quiet till the name of Jesus is mentioned?



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 6:38 pm

            But, Fessdo, I thought this blog was all ABOUT JESUS! Am I missing something here?



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 6:44 pm

            Fessdo,
            1 Peter 5:8
            “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”

            Your bro Dave



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 6:49 pm

            Dave,
            Your right it is all about Jesus but if you notice the gripers, complainers, and the poor poor me people hardy ever mention Jesus and if you tell them Jesus is their answer then the beast come out. It’s like satan’s hold on them to keep then down and bitter don’t want to let go and immediately they go for the throat because they’re not in their right mind, they don’t have the mind of Christ but the mind of the devil.



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 7:19 pm

            Dear, true brother Fessdo, the best indication that Jesus is present is that there is love, His Love, in the message.
            John 13:35
            ‘”By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
            1 Corinthians 13:4-7
            “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

            Stay blessed, bro.

            Dave



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 9:24 pm

            Dave,
            You have a loving spirit like the disciple John who was known as the disciple of love, me on the other hand lean more toward Peter with the sword. It would be nice but not all people can be helped and most of the time I can quickly tell the one that fall into that category (koo Talitha). Here are 10 kinds of people I have identified who are so entrenched in certain habit patterns that you cannot help them advance to the next level unless they make the necessary shift in their attitude or behavior.
            1. Those who do not take responsibility for themselves
            The first step towards self-improvement is to remove all excuses for mediocrity or failure. Those that continually blame other people for their failures will never go to the next level. Leaders can complain about their spouses, the income level of their congregations, the lack of staff or any other issue, but I have learned that within every challenge is the seed of opportunity for success which requires the creativity of problem solving.
            2. Those who do not have a heart to seek God
            The Bible teaches us that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 9:10). Those who do not respect God enough to seek Him and study His Word so they can make wise decisions in life are violating Scripture (Josh. 1:8-9) and cannot be helped either by myself or any other leader or minister. Those who do not obey what God requires for success have decided to try to be successful in life without God’s blessings!
            3. Those who create distance so they are not accountable
            There are certain people I have met in our church who only let others get so close before cutting off the relationship. Many go from one church to the next because they fear becoming too close to a leader who will hold them accountable. Often some will attempt to attend a megachurch where they will be able to hear the Word of God in the context of a large crowd so that no one will really know who they are. Whether it is fear or rebellion, those who live like this have put a low ceiling on their lives and will not grow past the infant stage concerning their potential in life.
            4. Those who insist on having a negative outlook on life
            There are some people who refuse to exercise faith in God or think positively as the Word of God commands us in Philippians 4:8. This is because some have a propensity to expect the worst in life so they are never disappointed by anyone or anything! This is a weird way some folks attempt to shield their emotions from the pain of disappointment; it is a very common practice with many people. Jesus often told people that they would receive according to how they believed (for example, Matt. 8:13). Proverbs 23:7 teaches that as a person thinks in their heart so they will be. I cannot empower a person who refuses to think God’s thoughts about themselves and about life.
            5. Those who refuse to have a vision for their future
            There are many very talented and anointed people I have been in relationship with who live their lives without any strategic plan or vision for their future. They are just living from day-to-day to prepare for their retirement. Those who are successful have a compelling vision that drives them daily and which feeds their souls even more than the desire to make money! Inside of every believer is a God-given kingdom vision for their future. If a person refuses to tap into that as their guiding light—and value that vision as their barometer for success—then my continual pep talks will not do the trick either!
            6. Those who live in self-deception
            There are many people who are living lives of denial regarding their relationships with God and their families and all things regarding their inner and outer lives. The sad thing is that denial is the first step to outright deception in which a person concocts an alternate, false reality that continually feeds their mind and emotions the things they want to hear about themselves and their key relationships. This insulates them from the word of the Lord from others and the Holy Spirit. When you confront people like this they become upset and blame you for not understanding them or for wrongfully accusing them of something. These are the people I cannot help unless God steps in and delivers them from satanic deception (read 2 Tim. 2:23-25).
            7. Those who do not want to pay the price for success
            There are many in the church who want the perks of success but don’t want to pay the price for success.
            When I was a teenager I had a goal of becoming a master guitar player. For seven years I practiced the guitar for 3-8 hours per day as well as playing in numerous bands. While my friends were outside playing ball or wasting time doing drugs I would shut myself up in my house and study jazz, rock, blues, classical and more, and spend hours doing scales on my guitar (which I often did even while watching television). Because of this sacrifice I gained mastery over my instrument in various kinds of music and was in high demand as a musician.
            Whatever we do in life, we are called to sacrifice our time, invest our talents, and be committed to a long, grueling process with many setbacks until we reach our peak performance. This kind of sacrifice is needed in every area we desire success in including our marriages, relationships with our children, leading a company or a church, etc.
            Consequently, I have found that I am not able to empower a person to the fullness of their destiny if they don’t want to work hard at self-improvement.
            8. Those whose primary agenda is individualistic and not kingdom-oriented
            There are some people whose only agenda in life is to advance their own agenda. They don’t want to work with a team or flow in the context of a local church. They want me to pour my life into them but they are rarely ever willing to pour back into the church and serve in the Kingdom of God. I have learned that those who only want to use the church or God to advance their own agendas (even if it is ministry related) have greatly limited their own lives. Thus, I back away from these people until they change. This is because we are all called to seek first God’s kingdom in which we need to die to our individualistic sense of destiny and sacrifice and invest our time for the good of the body of Christ. This in turn will do more to release our greatest destiny—even more than if we only concentrate on our own agendas!
            9. Those who refuse to keep covenant
            I have been with very talented individuals with great calling on their lives who I had to back away from because they did not know how to remain faithful to their obligations or because they broke confidence by continually talking behind other people’s backs. God says that a person who doesn’t keep their word (whatever the cost) and who slanders their neighbor cannot dwell in His tents (Ps. 15:3-4) so who am I to think that this kind of person can dwell in my inner circle for personal development!
            10. Those who lack transparency, humility and integrity
            The Bible teaches us to walk in the light as He is in the light (1 John 1:7). It also teaches us to confess our faults to one another and pray for one another that we may be healed (James 5:16). Those who do not admit their faults and confess their sins cannot have the kind of relationship with a mentor suitable for personal growth. It is important for me to have a transparent relationship with those I am mentoring since a person who conceals their sins from me is not giving me a chance to fully speak into their life and help them in their areas of weakness. Those who want to progress in their spiritual formation have to learn to practice the spiritual discipline of confession of sin (Prov. 28:13).



          • Son on January 24, 2019 at 12:07 am

            Fessdo, I was ready to leave this forum. I stayed only because Jesus, through my brethren such as you and Stu, for example, exhorted me to stay to try to share my love of Jesus and my testimony for Him. When I speak here, it is through the prompting of Jesus, me trying to see things through His eyes and think as though in His mind. I agree with you that there are forces representing the anti-Christ at work here. My only response has been limited to saying the things that I believe Jesus wants me to say and so I try to speak through His Spirit when I comment on this thread. I do not condemn you, not in any way, for your responses to those who would demean you and your witness. I know one thing, though: Jesus is The Spirit of Love/Charity and I do my best to honor Him and follow Him. The only thing I have to offer my brethren is the Love that Jesus has demonstrated toward me, towardr you, toward every human being who lives or has lived.. Hopefully, that will translate into our brethren seeing The Truth that stands behind His manifested love.
            Please don’t get me wrong. I’m no saint, and I certainly have my weaknesses. I am fully aware that I, as is the case with every person, have sinned and fallen short of The Glory of God. I’m doing my best to emulate Jesus in my view and my thinking, that I might please HIM. I am not about pleasing men.
            Galatians 1:10
            “For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
            1 Peter 4:8
            “And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.”
            Revelation 2:17
            “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”

            My brethren who worship and adore our blessed, precious Lord Jesus, strive to be humble and be grateful to Him, for through HIS SUFFERING AND DEATH, we live instead of perish.

            Your bro in Jesus,

            Dave

            .



  60. Robert on January 22, 2019 at 12:35 am

    This is one example of my church related or church leader related bad experience/s. I bought a business from john westfal he was a student at bbc college in springfield mo. He wanted to sell his business so bad that he was willing to lie to the bank to force my loan to go through. (I have more details and a tape recorded confession from john ) after a few months the business was repossessed because of johns lies. This left a fellow Christian (me) without transportation and basically no income. I am still faced with paying a dept of over 25 thousand dollars from 2006 to current. I guess my point is…. We are people no matter the title we have and my bad experience was because of a man and even though he is now head pastor of a church near greenbush newyork i cant justify not going to church and i cant blame God for johns actions. We should stand tall and continue as loving God fearing Christians meeting together even if it seems dificult to do. I have mixed emotions about organized religion but i will never doubt the power of fellowship among believers. I find it to be more edifying to keep my eyes open foe Gods apointed visits whether it be with christian fellowship or to be used as a vessel to deliver a message to the lost and this rarely ever happened behind the walls of a so called church. To many churches today are focused primarily on high attendance mostly for the larger amounts of money in an offering plate. I was invited to a nearby church but before i went found that one of the things they asked for upon making you a member was your full financial history. What? When has that ever been a requirement? Are they saying only financially sound people are capable of true worship?? This is also a huge problem that will turn non believers and new believers away from a ” place of worship ” . anyone struggling with this issue should keep in mind God wants your heart…not your wallet…although He has asked us to give to Him with a cheerful heart. He asked us to do this not because Hes broke and needs us to pay His way but to see if we trust Him and can be faithful to Him no matter were we are financially. I would be enclined to speak anywhere in the united states as long as safety messures have been taken and will deliver a message to the “church” of today in hopes to change the focus from money back to souls. I am not a great person and have not lived the best life and am now disabled and life has become even more dificult. My faith no doubt has been tested and no matter what i do, think, or say i always know He is there. If i dare i would like to say one more thing… How many denominations are there? How many of them preach the same thing? How many of them childishly criticize other denominations? Why do denominational differences create divisions in the body of believers? Is the body of christ singular or plural? ONE GOD! ONE SAVIOR! ONE BELIEF!

    • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 8:55 am

      Robert,
      Your comment really spoke to me this morning, it’s good to know I’m not the only sucker in this world. Funny but I never ever would have thought how trying to help the church years ago could effect my life so negatively years later. Like you I had a good heart and good intentions but we are the kind of people greedy leaders thrive on. I now know what Jesus was talking about when He said “there’s none good” and that includes me. It did help me cause when I stopped trying to show people my goodness and started showing them Jesus and His goodness their came a peace that passed all understanding over me. I no longer have to work on showing people how good Fessdo is I just have to show them Jesus and what he has done for them.
      With this knowledge of people it’s fun to mess with their greedy minds, the more greedier the more fun. I have years or experience in car repair and everyone has car problems, so when I go to a new church the first thing many will ask is “what you do for a living”. Knowing people I say I repair cars and it never fails they will say “good I know where to bring my car when it needs repair” I smile real big then I say I appreciate that and I love working on Christians cars cause they want to be like Christ and be blessing and want to help out a fellow Christian, so I’ll just charge you $85hr instead of my usual $75hr I know you want to bless me. But they never smile back they just walk off????

      • talitha cumi on January 22, 2019 at 7:38 pm

        Look here Fessdo, I never addressed you or your posts because your comments are ignorant and foul. You said I’m acting like my father the devil. Wow. You have lots more nerve than I do, writing such to someone you know nothing about. Maybe you committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by writing that. Go see where Jesus mentions that unpardonable sin. He was accused of doing His miracles by the power of Satan. What you wrote about me is basically along the same line of thought. I am filled with the Holy Spirit and my father is not the devil. I feel pity for you. Don’t bother to reply. Guys like you are another reason I run from ‘church’…….no better than creepy bar-flies. You need to be reported to the webmaster.

        • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 8:39 pm

          Talitha,
          According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30).

          The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day committed the unpardonable sin by accusing Jesus Christ (in person, on earth) of being demon-possessed. They had no excuse for such an action. They were not speaking out of ignorance or misunderstanding. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God to save Israel. They knew the prophecies were being fulfilled. They saw Jesus’ wonderful works, and they heard His clear presentation of truth. Yet they deliberately chose to deny the truth and slander the Holy Spirit. Standing before the Light of the World, bathed in His glory, they defiantly closed their eyes and became willfully blind. Jesus pronounced that sin to be unforgivable.

          The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, specific as it was to the Pharisees’ situation, cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, and no one can personally see Jesus perform a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ. The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ.

          God has provided for our salvation in His Son (John 3:16). Forgiveness is found exclusively in Jesus (John 14:6). To reject the only Savior is to be left with no means of salvation; to reject the only pardon is, obviously, unpardonable.

          Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2).

          • talitha cumi on January 23, 2019 at 12:22 am

            Wow, what an impressive exposition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! You are indeed a crafty little thing; at once nasty and rude, then you turn into Charles Spurgeon. That sin can still be committed today. Satanists commit it all day long, ya think?
            By saying that my father is the devil, you are calling a born again, Holy Spirit filled Christian a child of the devil. In other words, you are saying that I am devil-filled, not Spirit filled. Same thing they accused Christ of doing/being. Is it the fact that I am an Hebrew that got your goat? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! Guilty as charged! You know NOTHING about me and none of my posts offended anyone but YOU. Anyone can cut/paste a load of Scripture and throw it up on this forum. You seem very lost and to be pitied…



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 8:24 am

            talitha cumi,
            What can make you whole again?
            Nothing but the blood of Jesus.



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 1:37 pm

            Amen, true brother Fessdo. Well said.

            Dave



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 1:43 pm

            Matthew 5:38-39
            “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

            God’s Peace to my brethren.

            Dave



    • talitha cumi on January 22, 2019 at 3:32 pm

      Sir, your comments are good. Never forget that we are now in the age of apostasy that Christ Himself warned us to discern. I have also had highly placed church leaders do abominable things to me. I didn’t blame the Lord but I was soundly turned off. Also, when so-called believers look at me as if I’m some ‘new thing’ because I’m an Hebrew Christian, this is disturbing. Are they not aware that Christ was the FIRST Hebrew Christian? Come on here! The geschtalt of the church scene is getting worse, not better. Would I love to fellowship with like minded believers? Yes! However, it seems that no two Christians can agree on any one thing when they gather! I tried Hebrew Christian fellowships and found they were Judaising the faith back to Mosaic Law. How confusing. I am reading from Genesis straight through to Revelation at this point in my trusty King James Bible and see amazing truths from His great and glorious counsel. I miss making friends at church, as I did back in the 70s. It’s difficult for me to make friends in church now. It’s become entirely too worldly and everyone wants to argue. I prefer to debate. But I digress. Christ warned us of the coming end times apostasy, so no real believer should be the least surprised. Give no place to the devil and persevere no matter what. Maranatha

      • koo on January 22, 2019 at 4:03 pm

        Both sides of my family made cemetaries for family & community. Both ended up in the hands of church & extended family. Both ended up causing heartbreak to family because suddenly we weren’t pure enough to be in our own family cemetary. So what if someone switched from Lutheran to Catholic? So once apon a time I was wealthy, having 2 places to rest. Our plots were sold to people who were “pure” enough & we never received restitution so that we might go elsewhere & the only way we will ever get answers is if we go the attorney route which of course we aren’t going to do. Now those family who have stayed in the area & stayed with the church refuse to even talk to us. They know we want our family plots. They chose church over blood so now we also have no family because a small piece of land & money & their church that preaches hate of other denominations of Christianity is most important – plus that guilty concience. So from my perspective churches preach & practice just as much hate as they do love. They have sure done a number on my family from both sides. Fessdo I have to admit you R funny but right – always notice that Christian rental cost more but Christian work pays less – forced poverty vs voluntary vow of.

        • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 4:56 pm

          koo,
          You ever heard of cremation, as bitter as you are you’ll go real quick.

          • koo on January 23, 2019 at 9:08 am

            I am giving reasons why people don’t go to church & you are yet another reason.



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 9:19 am

            koo,
            Psalm 64:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
            2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:
            3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:
            4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not.
            Thanks to Jesus I fear no evil.



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 1:06 pm

            Funny how “one man’s meat is another’s poison.” People like Fessdo are THE REASON I go to church.
            I imagine that some react to Fessdo the way some reacted to the words of Jesus, all those years ago.



          • koo on January 23, 2019 at 2:15 pm

            Church sanctioned property theft, destruction of family ties & refusal to use their own Book to resolve the issues They created (cause they won’t even own up to what they did) is a valid reason why many of us no longer trust churches. I fail to understand any relevant meaning to above stated facts except maybe you are inciting me to take it to the court of the land? Suuuuurre.



          • fessdo on January 23, 2019 at 2:40 pm

            koo,
            There is never a valid reason to not forgive someone.
            Matthew 18:21-25 The Message (MSG)
            A Story About Forgiveness
            21 At that point Peter got up the nerve to ask, “Master, how many times do I forgive a brother or sister who hurts me? Seven?”
            22 Jesus replied, “Seven! Hardly. Try seventy times seven.

            koo how close are you to the 4900?
            Also why does it bother you what someone does to you?



      • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 4:52 pm

        Talitha,
        Who pissed in your toasties this morning, or are you acting like your father the devil?

        • talitha cumi on January 22, 2019 at 7:54 pm

          CAVEAT EMPTOR: There is a man on here by the name of ‘Fessdo’ who makes rude and inappropriate comments to people. He accused me of being a child of the devil. He has written rude things to others but that comment to me takes the cake. I guess he projects his own insecurities and spiritual issues on others, but he should not be tolerated.

          • fessdo on January 22, 2019 at 8:26 pm

            “let the buyer beware” You funny, oh one more thing ” get thee behind me talitha in the name of Jesus”



          • Son on January 23, 2019 at 1:20 pm

            Matthew 7:3-5
            “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

            God bless you, Talitha.

            Dave



          • Karen on April 25, 2020 at 4:47 pm

            Bring Back Ex Lover Husband Wife, Boyfriend, Girlfriend email Robinson buckler@ gmail (.) com ____________________________________👏👏👏



  61. Billy on January 21, 2019 at 5:48 pm

    “God is love.” So you are saved by having faith in Love which leads to loving. Its that simple regardless of your church. Otherwise billions will go to hell, and God desires NONE to go to hell. KIS–Keep it simple because man is simple minded–which is why there are so many faiths & wrong opinions. Man makes a mess out of everything under the sun.

    • fessdo on January 21, 2019 at 5:56 pm

      Wild Bill,
      Don’t leave out Jesus.
      John 14:6 King James Version Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    • talitha cumi on January 22, 2019 at 3:42 pm

      Billy, your comment is misguided. We are saved by grace through faith. God is love but He is also a consuming fire. Never forget that. God desires none to go to hell yet they will go because, well, just read the Parable of the Tares and the Wheat in the KJB. Christ really explains it so much better than I can. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, is really His child. Go ahead, read the parable. It’s never preached because it’s so PITHY.

  62. stung!!! on January 20, 2019 at 8:25 am

    Did anyone else hear the Fifth trumpet of God Almighty sound when oil wells were lit ablaze during “Operation Desert Storm”?
    During the Gulf War when all the oil wells were lit ablaze I was attacked by a demon on three separate occasions all at night. This is what happened. While I slept a demon flew through my window and attack me. The spirit inside me fought this demon briefly until I awoke. Then it made me take over. I leaped out of bed trying to defend myself. This demon was horrid and spun circles around me thrashing through my soul with its hands, then it left as fast as it came. The demon radiated from the pains associated with the abyss. He was like a coal pulled from the fire, with the pains of the abyss Rev 9, 3. This attack happened on three separate occasions as I have stated. all on separate nights during the time frame when the oil wells had been lit ablaze in the Middle East. The third time it attacked me however was different from the rest. As before the demon attacked me, but this time I had enough since to command it to leave in the name of Jesus Christ. What happened next is even more amazing. After commanding this demon to leave in the name of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit delivered me outside my bedroom into the hallway. The demon followed. We were brought into the presence of the Lord. The Demon stood to my left and grabbing my hand, it placed its tail on top of my left hand. It was the sting of the scorpion and it went like this. It sent waves of fire through my soul Rev 9, 10. The pain was so sever that I couldn’t scream. Unconditionally, I looked straight up and said “Father please help me”. The demon then left.
    This all happened after being seduced into trying transcendental meditation, which caused spiritual bondage to witchcraft / demonic forces. Maybe the spiritual bondage occurred after playing a Ouija board or Tarot cards as a young boy. I’m not quite sure. They appeared at that time just to be games, and were sold in the kids section at stores or at least the Ouija board was. I had a lot of spiritual warfare after participating in these so called “games”. What I am sure of is that prior to being attacked by this demon, I was forced to go through the Illuminati’s esoteric initiation performed through altered states of consciousness / transcendental meditation assisted with witchcraft / demonic forces. Why I say demonic forces is that I believe all witchcraft to be the powers of demons / the Devil. I was forced to go through said esoteric initiation through methods including witchcraft, demonology, and subversive acts of terrorism. The methods of witchcraft included mind control / manipulation, heart palpitations, witchcraft dreams causing sleep depravation, powerful visions, and many other forms. In said ceremony I was instructed to except the worship of one of their many “demonic gods”. They informed me that in excepting one of there gods I accepted them all. One of there gods was the Devil, another they named Jesus, but they appeared to have a demon for every occasion. They informed me through methods of telepathy , that in accepting the worship of one, I accepted them all. What better way to join all religions of the world together under one banner of 666 spiritually enslaving society?
    David Spengler of the United Nations says that all people must go through a esoteric initiation and worship Lucifer to enter the New Age of Enlightenment. Helen Blavatsky calls it a Christ like consciousness, universal mind set. Benjamin Cream states that after said initiation all its members will be able to hear ancient wisdom spoken telepathically at the same moment by ascended Masters. I knew nothing of this group at that time or there Luciferian agenda of a One World Government. Take a guess what method is used for this initiation? I bet you know now. Have you heard of the New Age Movement, or its affiliation with “Free” Masonry? Do you know what a unholy baptism is or the term Kundalini.
    To the best of my knowledge this is the method Satan’s Secret Society uses to distribute the “spiritual mark of the beast”, and cause spiritual captivity Revelation 13, 10. Have you received your spiritual stamp of acceptance? If so, did you take it on the forehead becoming a spiritual slave of evil, or on the right hand a servant of the Devil himself? Does this sound hard to believe? Here are a few scriptures giving in sight. Revelation 13, 10, If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go . This is spiritual captivity to witchcraft / demonic forces. Naham 3, 4, who enslaved nations by her witchcraft. Revelation 18, 23, By your magic spell all nations were led astray. Hebrews 2:15 states by there fear of death they are held in bondage. Witchcraft / demonic powers are very real. Thank you Jesus for the Holy spirit and your Angels.
    There is a way out, but it has been difficult for me. Revelation 12, 11, Those who overcame, overcame by the blood of the lamb and the “word” of their testimony. They didn’t love their own lives so much as to shrink from death. Hebrews 2, 15, By their fear of death they are held in spiritual captivity / bondage. Satan’s “Secret” Society isn’t very secret anymore! It is like a giant octopus with many tentacles reaching far and wide.
    Here is the rest of the story. Three to four nights later the demon returned in the early am @ about 3am. He wasn’t alone, Satan / Apollyon and the demon’s twin brother was with him. They hovered in the air above the ground, before the olive tree in our back yard. I could see them as the spirit in me manifested them to me! Satan hovered in the middle while the demons were on either side of him. The demon on his left had been thrown into the lake of fire for what he did to me. He radiated like a coal pulled from the fire what seemed to be 15’x15′. He was lit up like a Christmas tree! Graciously yours baptized by fire the witness! Who will believe this testimony? God will be my witness! Located in California. Recommended information Fake truth Movement Exposed 1-12 on you tube. It has insight into who has received the spiritual stamp on there right hand.

    • fessdo on January 20, 2019 at 9:12 am

      Stung!!!
      I did hear something when the oil wells was lit but I had eat a large bowl of beans before going to bed and just figured by the smell it was something else?
      You said “Does this sound hard to believe” at first it did till I got to the end and read “Located in California”, this confirms what I’ve always heard, that California is full of Fruits, Flakes, and Nuts.
      Fessdo

  63. Sick of smug on January 15, 2019 at 8:35 pm

    Your tone in this post and the other one about leaders who leave the church is precisely why I’ve left and won’t come back. Get off your high horse and listen with empathy for once. If you wrote this for us to read and to get us to come back, you’re failing miserably. But if you wrote this to get pats on the back from self righteous smug “christians” like yourself then I say you’ve succeeded.

    • Randy on January 20, 2019 at 7:38 am

      A lot of truth on the comments– but if you give false testimony is that lying. If I stated someone said this and that and they didn’t say these things this would be false testimony, As Mathew, mark, Luke and John, gives, not real names to their books no one knows the names of the disclpes only Paul knew them but never meet them or Jesus. The people just wrote what they would it to say. M,m,l,j where not witness of Jesus ,No. If god wanted a book hell write and give it to you not false names etc,.

  64. rodney Butler on January 3, 2019 at 1:29 pm

    Jesus said your body is the church
    Jesus said forsake not the Gathering of yourselves together in worshipping him.
    If we would use each other’s house as a worshipping place the almighty buck 4 Fortune would stop in the church

    • Son on January 3, 2019 at 2:57 pm

      You mean, like they used to do it back in the days right after God walked the earth? GREAT IDEA!
      How about you host the first meeting at your house, brother Rodney?
      I don’t think it would go over to well in the neighborhood, here where I live, anyway.
      We can’t even get a cocktail party together.
      A church provides a central gathering place for Christians who live miles away from it, but are willing to drive there anyway.
      Home worship would be great, but I think it’s impractical.

      p.s. – I guess there wouldn’t be a collection plate in other people’s houses, huh? That would eliminate the profit motive.

      What are your thoughts on this, brother fessdo?

      • Stan the plumber man on January 20, 2019 at 3:31 am

        Home is ultimately where the HEART is. Maybe the heart of christ. Old days r family members were laid out in the living room on their passing. No better place to praise our father in the same place?

    • lori on January 5, 2019 at 3:18 pm

      I am done with church too. conventional church that is. Our church went strictly by the book and then we learned that When Jesus died on the cross the old covenant Church was done away with and the new covenant in Christ began. then our church went way over board and started keeping Christmas and Easter and Holloween and all those other Pagan holidays. I spelled Holloween with an o because there is not any of Christ in it. I believe in Jesus as my savior but I will not keep holidays infused with paganism in them . it’s like taking a pile of poop and decorating it up and then expecting God to eat it. Do you want to eat fancy decorated poop on a plate? neither would I and neither would I expect God to either.

      • Chris on January 9, 2019 at 12:32 pm

        Your example is very STUPID and really doesn’t work for this situation.

        • Linda Bailey on January 13, 2019 at 5:39 am

          That is very rude of you.

      • Stu on January 9, 2019 at 2:10 pm

        Hi Lori.

        I hope you are doing well. I wanted to respond to you because initially, when I came to this site, I expressed a dim view personally about my relationship with the church. Having read so many comments here, I saw an increasing amount of bitterness in too many of the letters I read. I had a lot of unforgiveness in my own heart because of how I related, or not, to church. But it has turned my attention to Christ and no longer to me, and I returned to persevere and overcome my own messiness being just another human being like the rest of us.

        I wanted to share what I came away with in Rev 2:18-29 (Please read it). I noticed something about what I may have considered to be the worst of the worst as far as churches go, but I paid attention to the following:
        “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come.”

        He is speaking to the ones in Thyatira who are enduring the worst spewed by all of those who are displeasing to Christ. Notice not once does he imply or tell these saints to leave—but to endure, and to receive the reward Jesus had planned for them.

        I hope you will look past so much of the garbage we see in churches today. I recall a very famous Pastor who was to deliver a sermon on a holiday (standing room only). But he fell sick, and the Junior Pastor got up to take his place. When those in the congregation heard that the Senior Pastor was ill, many got up to leave. But just as quickly the Junior Pastor asked them the following question: “Did you only come to hear the Senior Pastor speak, or did you come to hear the Word of God”? All sat down. The point Lori, is that we do not come for ourselves. We come to worship God, and also to encourage, to relate to, to admonish, and to strengthen those in the church who are believers. When Jesus made himself to be the least, he was exalted by the Most High. Jesus loved and died for his people—the Church. He told us not to forsake the assembly of God as some have been in the habit of doing. He wants us to have relationships, not religion. It is our job to overcome what is lacking, by seeking wise counsel, by reading the Word of God, by praying, and by sharing with your brothers and sisters all good things you have learned. I hope you will reconsider your feelings.

        Blessings to you.
        Stu

        • Son on January 9, 2019 at 4:14 pm

          Nice comment, brother Stu, redolent with God’s love and holy spirit! Hopefully, Lori can relate to your obviously heartfelt exhortation.

          Your bro Dave

          • Stu on January 9, 2019 at 5:11 pm

            Thx Dave. I learned a new word too (redolent). God bless you.



          • Son on January 9, 2019 at 10:08 pm

            lol, I was an English major, Stu. Must have learned a new word myself there. You have been a blessed, positive brother in Jesus in all of my interactions with you here. God bless you and keep you strong in His Spirit, my beloved brother!

            Dave



          • Son on January 9, 2019 at 10:13 pm

            Ha ha, Stu, I was an English major. Something must have stuck from my education, I guess. You have been a blessed, supportive, positive agent of The Lord in all of our interactions here on this forum. God bless you and keep you strong in His Holy Spirit, dear brother, as we wait for His Return to bring us home.

            Dave



        • Stan the plumber man on January 20, 2019 at 3:01 am

          Omg. The thoughts and words of many have aided in my refocus on CHRIST. Gotta say WWJD. Hope I can keep that as my focus in life . We r a small part but together we can rise above all obstacles. Life bumps or hurdles. Nothing 4 a high stepper. My life as nd Tim ed on earth r small but I can h dr ll many if I decide 2. God help me 2 help many. Please!

      • Mark on January 14, 2019 at 6:40 pm

        This is the day that the lord has made we will rejoice and be glad in it psalms 118:24 . Everyday is Gods creation the devilor no one have authority !! God bless

        • fessdo on January 14, 2019 at 6:57 pm

          Mark please tell me where you come up with this?

      • Stan the plumber man on January 20, 2019 at 3:41 am

        To call off all church activity is like saying I cant drive because I bought a Yugo. That was your choice.Christ is our guide in a truely good life. If we r followers and guides us we may be blessed. Hopefully. If not we still r blessed in life.

    • Marcie Conant on January 5, 2019 at 3:42 pm

      Recently left my church because my pastor made ageist comments from the pulpit last Sunday. I guess he thought he was being funny but I really don’t need to be entertained with stand up comedy when I’m trying to focus on Jesus. So I,m going to start attending a group Bible study with other Seniors. However, I recently had a pastor tell me that this is no REAL church because there is no communion, accountability from the pulpit or building up of the local church.

      • Son on January 6, 2019 at 8:21 am

        Why do you need to participate in communion at a church? Can’t you eat some bread and drink some wine in His Holy Name at home? Are you Catholic?
        Mark 7:8 “For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.”
        John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

        His Peace be upon you, dear sister.

        Dave

        • fessdo on January 6, 2019 at 8:48 am

          Dave,
          John 4:24 was a great answer, Jesus made it so plain there.
          John 4:21-24 Living Bible (TLB)
          21-24 Jesus replied, “The time is coming, ma’am, when we will no longer be concerned about whether to worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. For it’s not where we worship that counts, but how we worship—is our worship spiritual and real? Do we have the Holy Spirit’s help? For God is Spirit, and we must have his help to worship as we should. The Father wants this kind of worship from us. But you Samaritans know so little about him, worshiping blindly, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes to the world through the Jews.”

          Fessdo

          • Son on January 6, 2019 at 4:59 pm

            Well, well, folks, guess what? I left my church this morning, never to return (at least to this particular church). Turns out the issue was a woman pastor. Now, I realize today’s society in America is obsessed with the concept of political correctness, and it’s not pc to discriminate against women. My problem with prohibiting women from being the pastor is that Paul expressed the idea that it is not approved by God for a woman to have authority over men, or at least, not in the arena of religion. You folks are savvy enough, I believe, to be familiar with the scriptures that underline the issue.
            I don’t want to be affiliated with a church that ignores the text of scripture to suit its own needs and that is why I left a church that I felt (and hoped) held promise as a means of closer fellowship for me with the body of Christ. Oh, well, Evidently I must be patient and wait on Jesus to find me the church with which He wants me to associate. Bums me out that I got my butt out of bed at 6 am, cleaned up and got dressed and then drove the 20 miles between me and that church in hopes of spending some time with Jesus and my brethren (when two or three are gathered in my name, I am there also). Coulda kept on dreaming in my warm, cozy bed instead of having to freeze my @$$ off to find out I’ve been blindsided – AGAIN!



          • fessdo on January 6, 2019 at 8:09 pm

            Could have been worse my friend could have been a man pastor and after years of you going there you find out the pastor had a sex change a year before you started.



          • Son on January 7, 2019 at 12:25 am

            Ha ha ha, fessdo, still LOVE your sense of humor! : )

            btw, I was invited to join a “bible study” meeting before the sermon began today at church. The meeting broke up and I was left sitting with another brother at the table where we had met. I asked him about “Pastor Susan” and specifically, what he thought about a female pastor, citing Paul’s admonition that women should be silent in church and ask their husband in private if they had a question about something. He got real weird, clamming up and telling me “I can’t discuss that with you.” I pressed him a little, saying, “What? Did you just say ‘you ‘can’t discuss that with me’?” His attitude became even more weird, to the point that I became uncomfortable sitting next to him. I patted him on the shoulder and remarked, “I need to use the head, nice meeting you. God bless you.” Then, I left that church, never to return. Freaked me out!



      • Stan the plumber man on January 20, 2019 at 3:48 am

        Group religion is like it says GROUP. With a mass WE CAN CONCUIRE THE WORLD OR AT LEAST THE PILE OF SHIT IN OUR OWN BACK YARD. In life it starts in our own yard. Looking to help my neighbors clean up the POOP.. WWJD?

    • JOHN on January 8, 2019 at 8:33 pm

      I like the way you put Jesus first

    • Robin on January 10, 2019 at 12:49 pm

      Amen.

    • lisa boyce on January 13, 2019 at 3:25 pm

      My husband and I no longer attend a brick and morter church building. We do attend an online church. We’re both born again, Spirit filled believers in Christ Jesus. We love the Lord with all of our hearts, soul and mind. The problem for us is there are no serious bible teaching churches, at least not in our area, at all. We rather stay home and watch our online church than be involved in a lukewarm, church that is not serious about teaching the people, or giving people a false doctrine. God is not in buildings. The pastors are not teaching repentance, nor holding people accountable for sin. Sin is not being preached in the churches at all anymore. Pastors are allowing a complacent spirit and not even giving alter calls. We went to one church and they were playing secular music. I mean very secular music. Its quite pathetic.

      • Stu on January 13, 2019 at 4:11 pm

        Dear Lisa,

        I went to church this morning; the Pastor preached on sin. When you claim, “Sin is not being preached in the churches at all anymore,” I think it is important not to make universal and dogmatic statements. It is surely an easy way to convince oneself that what he believes is true—but not necessarily what Christ believes—who loved and died for his Church. I again want to reiterate a passage in Revelation: “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come.” Jesus sees what is going on—even in the worst of his Body, but he is not calling anyone to leave; he is asking those who stay to persevere and overcome and be rewarded for it. This was a church practicing sexual sin whose teacher was Jezebel.

        We are quick to accuse, point fingers, blame, and condemn. The very first sin ever committed was blame, and we have turned it into an art form. It makes us bitter and subtly and deceptively makes us prideful. If we can lift ourselves up in the face of others who are “not so well off,” we can pretend the mask we are wearing isn’t visible. But God sees every mask, and even on our best day, even while we pray—God says we are filthy rags. Spurgeon said that until a man comes to realize how truly black inside he is, he has no real understanding of what “Christian” means. I am not judging you; this attitude is in each of us, and to the degree that it is, demonstrates our need to come to Christ for everything.

        There is a real contention between being self-centered and other-centered. We fight the one to belong to the other and we struggle every step of the way. Many in church need the more mature brother or sister to encourage and model, and testify to God’s love for us that He did not have to give.

        God bless you.
        Stu

        • Son on January 13, 2019 at 4:33 pm

          Don’t let your trespasses interfere with your relationship with Jesus. We all trespass.
          Romans 3:23
          ” For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
          God has worked out your salvation. He did it on The Cross, all those years ago.
          Be thankful to Him. And, stay humble.

          • Stu on January 13, 2019 at 4:47 pm

            Be it that I should hear back on what I just shared. But you make my point ever clearer. So thank you for the boomerang..



        • lisa boyce on January 13, 2019 at 4:48 pm

          First all, comments like that is another reason we don”t go as well. In short, you are judging me, but that’s ok. Another reason is there is no preaching of Prophecy. I asked several pastors in my state do they even touch on end times, or the coming Rapture to prepare the church for such. I’m just giving you reasons why a lot of believers are leaving the buildings. We’re definitely not the only ones who feel this way.

          • Stu on January 13, 2019 at 4:53 pm

            Perhaps Lisa you did not read the part where I said I was not judging you, but thx for the heads-up. btw, I included myself. We are all in this together. I am not your enemy. 🙂



          • fessdo on January 13, 2019 at 5:02 pm

            Stu,
            I think it maybe that time of the month for Lisa?



          • lisa boyce on January 13, 2019 at 5:04 pm

            THAT WAS VERY DISRESPECTFUL.



          • fessdo on January 13, 2019 at 5:07 pm

            Lisa,
            I’m sure you’ll GET OVER IT?



          • koo on January 20, 2019 at 9:27 pm

            Yep. Church governance doesn’t even follow the Book. That hypnotic New Age music where you can screw up the lyrics any which way & still sound OK seems a masterful work of Satan vs old time songs that had a beginning, middle and end & with a purpose of helping you to remember an important lesson. Psychology has taken precedence & most pastors evidence a stronger faith in this soft psuedo-science of satan than God or the Bible. Show me the fruit of psychology. It is as barren as it is beguiling. I have many more reasons to run from church but these should be sufficient. I actually start feeling quite ill when I encounter the false words/worship & the hypnotic music & the rock concert decibels is to hide the lukewarm congregation & the missing Holy Spirit imo.



          • koo on January 20, 2019 at 10:30 pm

            Years ago when I was new I asked why we weren’t learning prophecy and Revelation & was told it’s a “closed book” whatever that means. Also that to understand it one needs guidance of Holy Spirit. So that has left me on a solitary journey with internet – bleh. People who went to Catholic school claimed to und